Upadesh Saar : Verse 14 (Day 1)

SS: Mano laya: mind is absorbed through pranayama or any spiritual practice. It is absorbed in the support it takes. @GPji - deep sleep also is manolaya. Mind is absorbed in ignorance and becomes unmanifest. Even there, memory is functioning bec absence of everything is noted. This absorbed mind is like the bird trapped below the net. This was the verse 11 analogy.

Mano nasha: mind has two aspects - functional mind and psychological mind. Psychological mind is the sense of psychological identity we have which separates us from others. It has likes n dislikes, attachment n aversion etc. Functional mind has only functional thoughts, skills, knowledge etc. What binds us is the psychological mind. Basis of this is ignorance. Hence mano-nasha is avidya naasha only. Functional thoughts dont bind us at all. They will continue as long as body is there. Such a person is called Jivanmukta. If a jivanmukta's functional mind also dies then we would not have great masters at all and realisation would be a dangerous state which kills a person. 😳.

Merely absorption of mind is not the goal. Its only a means and a relief. The goal and cure is to destroy ignorance and psychological divisions.

@Nityamukta and Sanjit: mind does not die with death of the body. Subtle body consists of 5 senses of knowledge, 5 senses of action, 5 pranas, mind, intellect, memory n ego. All these depart from the gross body at death. Mind continues in subtler form till the next gross body is attained by karma.
If mind died with the death of the body, we would not have continuity of life n laws of action n results will be redundant. We also cant explain why so much variety in creation.

@Krishna- non-ignorant individual is jivanmukta. Ignorant is called Jeeva.
Mano nasha is realisation. Final state. Nothing more to achieve after that.
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KG: Ok

GP: Beautiful swamiji! Thank you
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KG: Swamiji the verse says,
Mano laya using restrain of Prana and Nasha using mind. So the restraint of Prana doesnt lead to the permanent state. Like u said temp relief. Is it then worthwhile to engage in it (Mano Laya). Is it just to show one the ecstasy

I mean glimpse the no mind like state....?

Su: Thank you so much Swamiji!!

SS: No its not to give a glimpse but to prepare the mind for the glimpse. The next verse answers this question.

Verse 14: This mind that gets absorbed by the restrain of the Pranas, gets destroyed by contemplation on that One (Reality)

Prana-bandhanaat leena-maanasam.
Eka-chintanaat naashametyadaha.
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KG: Swamiji, this means the Contemplation on SELF will be fruitful (culminating in Mano Nasha) only when the preparation of the Sadhak has reached the level where he/she is able to Mano Laya in the spirit conveyed in here. This is Hatha Yoga way.

The converse may not be true. Karma and Bhakti yogins are not practicing control of Prana. Am I right?

SS: Karma and bhakti yogi's minds are absorbed in the ideal and in the Lord. Hence the process is same for all. Make the mind pure n calm. Then contemplate on Self.
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KG: Ok. Thank you Swamiji!

SS: 8 steps of Ashtanga yoga or raja yoga are summarized by Ramana Maharshi in 2 steps.
Yama, niyama, asana, pranayama, pratyahara n dharana lead to mano laya.
Dhyan and samadhi lead to mano-nasha.

Yoga generally believes in only quietude of mind. Hence Ramana clarifies here that contemplation is very important. Else the mind which goes into samadhi will come back like the birds below the net.

MN: So Swamiji for a person who does only Raja Yoga or Ashtanga yoga is it possible for him also to reach the State of Realisation?

SS: Yes. If he contemplates on Self.

MN: So contemplation is the Key here...Just achieving quietude of mind will not serve the purpose...Thank you Swamiji for clarifying😊

SS: Yes

NB: Thanku Swamiji🙏

Upadesh Saar : Verse 13 (Day 1)

SS: Verse 13: The absorption of the mind(mano laya) and destruction of the mind(mano nasha) occurs by the restrain of the Prana and the mind respectively. The absorbed mind comes back but never indeed the dead mind.

Laya-vinaashane ubhaya rodhane.
Laya gatam punar bhavati no mrtam.

What is the difference between mano laya and mano nasha? What does destruction of the mind mean?

Su: From Guruji's commentary I understand that mind has two aspects.. sensing the sense objects around us, perceiving them and making sense of them and registering it in our memory. Then we come to enjoy and depend on them eventually leading us to believe that happiness lies these objects.  We need to understand happiness lies in us (subject ) is not the nature  of the object. 
When we try to control the mind thru pranas the mind is absorbed hence does not perceive the objects... but if the control goes it will return again.  It's temporary. But when we control the mind directly with the understanding of the true nature of objects and man then that clingling-to-objects nature of mind gets destroyed. This destruction is permanent. Then the mind does not come back to cling to the outside world for happiness.

So here destruction is a positive concept. Therefore restraint thru pranas is like treatment of symptoms and destruction of mind is curing the disease.
So does that mean pranayama can be used as a beginners step...

GP: Good one sunitha
Swamiji, don't we experience mano-laya every day in deep sleep?

NB: True dat sunithaji... it  mentions dat wen prana is controled, d mind is also in control n dsnt wander.but d ignorance stil remains.so destruction of d mind is destruction of d ignorance.so for one's growth i think first one must go for restraining d mind thru pranayam n second d removal of ignorance thru knowledge.

GP: Question: if the mind becomes dead, what remains? As long as we are 'alive' won't traces of the mind remain?

NB: But GP bhaiya, manolaya means absorbed mind na? so wat wil d mind b absorbed in deep sleep?
Dis is as per ur question asked GP bhaiya

Su: GP from what I understood from the commentary ... dead mind does not mean the thoughts stop.  That goes on.  But the ignorance based on which the mind function ends..  please correct me Swamiji

SR: I think its parallelism...mano laya state is temporary control of mind thru pranas like sleeping man is temporary in sleep nd can wake up nd resume his functions

Whereas mano nasha is permanent removal of ignorance aftr wich it nevr come backs like dead man never wakes up

GP: But sunitha, if thoughts remain, then the mind is still present. The statement says 'mano nasha' and not 'avidya nasha'. And hence my question.

So sanjit, does the mind also die when the person is dead?

SR: As per my understanding...when person dies...mind does not get vital energy frm pranas nor does it get senses to express...so it disconnects nd not in use...temporarily dead...but can b used when again connected with pranas nd senses

NE: So mind travels thru different births like the soul?

NB: I think mind dies in a dead man bcoz its nothing but flow of thoughts...' dead man doesnt think'

But wen it gets a new body bcoz of d vasanas den d mind xpreses again

Su: GP even I am not to clear in that. When I read this I had the same question as yours.  If mind is the flow of thoughts, how can there be a mind without thoughts. 

But then I thought what he meant was that the subtle body remains... but the ego entity with individual likes and dislikes ends...

Not sure I made sense
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KG: My understanding :
Mano Laya - Absorbed using tool - Single pointed mind. Rebounces back when tool is withdrawn.
Mano Nasha - Mind in full control of the person(soul - not sure what an non-ignorant person is called). Mind/thoughts not driven by sense perception / memory / expectations / etc. Can choose what thoughts 2 think. Mind used as a tool to function pranas, body, etc.
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RP: I think we must go back to the   Vasanas->desires->thoughts->action->vasanas cycle. When we distract our minds and keep them focused using pranayama then this cycle is temporarily suspended but will resume again. But if mind understands that there is no real happiness in the objects and experiences that happiness is in the subject  then the link is broken permanently. That does not mean no thoughts but no thoughts born of this chain.

Like the dialog in the movies - "samjho aaj se tumhara yeh dost mar chuka hai". Meaning something internally happened and no thoughts of friendship will sprout again but doesn't mean he doesn't think at all. Better example - Arjun getting thoughts of "oh they are my Guru and grandfather and relatives "etc before the war. After listening to the Gita these thoughts born of attachment are "dead" but Arjun is not dead. Of course both examples have their limitations.

Su: Ok then when they say with pranayama the mind  becomes absorbed hence no perception hence no agitation etc.  But the mind has become absorbed now and no perception is happening now.  What about earlier impressions.  In the Vasanas cycle... can Vasanas be suppressed so that they don't express bcz mind is absorbed

SS: Good churning happening. Keep it going
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RP: Sunita - I think we can try explain this using the same Arjun example. Krishna could have tried to tell Arjun about Draupadi incidence etc and that could have temporarily psyched Arjun to forget his attachments and get ready for a fight. but when he would come face to face with his teacher then again he will not be able raise his bow.  But when his mind is truly "absorbed" in the knowledge these attachments don't raise again at all. What happened to the attachments - well the guy who used to be influenced by these are gone. Same with Vasanas in our discussions.

Su: So you are saying that Vasanas become dormant bcz the individual does not identify with it anymore ?
Can that happen?
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RP: In fact (I have read in some version)  Arjun tells Draupadi at one point during the war that this war is not about you and the humiliation you were subjected to but it is about Dharma!!! Now that coming from him who all the time prepared for war remembering that incident and other similar injustice done - it is really something. speaks of the transformation and not some hypnosis or psyched up situation. Back to our Laya and nasha discussion.

Su: If draupadi actually thought the whole war was for her ...imagine being told you never figured.. lol 😅
Sorry for digressing.. back to discussion
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RP: Not sure about dormant - if it is dormant then it can sprout again. Like take a seed and put it in a fridge - it won't sprout. Put it in a nice soil it will sprout again. This is Laya situation. Now roast the seed and put it in the garden - it won't sprout ever. Nasha situation.

Su: Nice example
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RP: Yea!
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KG: Gr8 example!
So shouldn't be Mano Nasha correspond to self-realization or is it still not gone above Dharma, so still a stepping stone. My assumption is Arjuna stood 4 Dharma after Geeta bodh but was still not a realized master.
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RP: I think we should just take them as example of understanding Laya and nasha. In Arjun's case what was destroyed vs what was in Laya state is specific to that example. Obviously upadesa Saar discussion is higher.

‎KG: Ok

Upadesh Saar : Verse 12 (Day 2)

‎RP: On the 12th verse Swamiji - it appears the power to know and power to act come from the same source and are linked like 2 branches. So by controlling the action (breath) we try to pull the mind. Take help from gross to get to the subtle! Almost similar thought in japa - start with loud chanting and go quieter.     Several ways to get to the mind - seems to be central and essential in our journey.

GP: Makes sense ram. But why does it say that the 'mind reflects consciousness'?

SS: Very well said Ramkumarji. Mind or subtlebody alone has the capacity to express life as consciousness. Inert things are different from sentient because they dont have a mind.

‎RP: Thank you Swamiji. To GP's qn - mind reflecting consciousness. That's probably why we are so interested in the mind! Still mind is nothing but consciousness are things we have read. Loud japa to silent japa to just silence - I think the key is here - mind it!
So if you can't get to the mind directly - get to it via its gross relatives. Inspector Shankar tumhari maa mere kabze mein hain type!

SS: Mind is subtler than prana and can desire, feel, perceive etc and gain knowledge. But Prana is necessary to energise the body and to act. Mind cannot energise the body in absence of Prana. Hence mind and body are linked together by Prana. So controlling prana helps to control body and mind.
Prana is not mere breath. It is all 5 Pranas. But when we say Prana-vikshana or observe the prana then it mainly means breath-observation.

GP: So then Swamiji, if Prana enlivens and energises the body, isn't it more important than the mind? Mind cannot enliven the body. In fact without the prana-shakti the mind cannot find expression. Then how are they equated?
But at the same time, I understand when you say that the mind can gain knowledge, can desire, feel, perceive, etc.
But is the Prana dependant on the mind? What is the dependency?
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RP: I don't know true answer, but we have observed that sometimes some one is very old or sick (pranas are not v bright) but mind is still very alert!
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KG: Mind as in subtle body remains irrespective of jiva's birth. Prana along with gross body is born and worn out at death. So mind is independent of Prana, but using Prana and body it can express aloud.

SS: Prana is vital energy. Mind is subtle energy. Both derive their power from maya which inturn derives it from Consciousness. So both are dependent on Consciousness. Between both, mind is subtler because though mind cannot energise the body by itself, it guides the pranas to energise. Without mind pranas will not know what to do n how to do.

@Krishna: pranas are also part of subtle body. At birth only gross body is born. Vasanas, Mind, intellect, 5 Pranas and 10 senses get associated with the body at birth and disassociated at death.
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KG: Thx Swamiji for the correction. Need to study the prakarana granthas again.

SS: Tattvabodh.

GP: Thanks Swamiji. Now it is crystal clear.
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RP: Swamiji question - can we really say pranas can't function without the mind? Eg deep sleep state - pranas are working but mind is inactive. Probably runs on auto pilot? But it is also observed that mind can make the pranas work faster for eg when it senses danger or is angry. But we know we can train ourselves to break the auto reflex. Like taking a deep breath or counting to 10 when we are angry. So it appears mind can and does influence directly but there is an element of independence by which we can reverse or resist the influence. And is probably this aspect that helps us in verse 12.

SS:
1. In Deepsleep there is a small part of the mind which remains functioning. Conscious n subconscious mind becomes dormant.
2. Prana is born out of rajasik aspect of 5 elements and mind from sattvik aspect of 5 elements. Hence mind is subtler than prana n controls prana.
3.Actually all functions continue of prana as long as prarabdha karma is there. When karma gets over then prana stops. So prana is not independent of mind or karma. If it was, then prana would decide our moods as well as our life span. But we see that moods n mind affects prana more often n when we are not able to control mind then we may use prana for indirect control. (Tumhari maa mere kabze me hain types 😜)
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RP: Understood Swamiji! All coming together now. Thank you very much. This must be like surprise viva for you every day with people shooting qns. Hats-off.

SS: Good opportunity to reflect. 😄

Su: Wow!!  I come back to group.. and too much to reflect on....

NP: Swamiji the mind itself directs the prana to take deep breaths etc to control the mind's agitation. So I'm thinking there is no indirect control, only direct control of the prana by the mind.
Because even if we want to calm the mind with breathing it is the mind itself which directs the prana

SS: Its true that mind directs but still the control is indirect because mind is regulating itself through Prana and not through thinking.

NP: But the final decision is by the mind
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RP: Nilima many parents think they make the final decision and not the kids. But you know how it works !

NP: Hahaha Ramkumar I said the above from an eg I heard long back in the discussion about diff betn the mind and intellect. The child is the mind and father intellect. In the shop the child cries for the toy, and the father gives in and buys it. The final decision to buy is the father's
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RP: Sometimes the mother gets her kids to say something to get the desired final decision from the father! Same way - part of your mind accepts and cooperates with breath control etc. for the greater benefit
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RP: Yea - same thing our messages crossed

NP: Hmm yeah.😀
Swamiji once Guruji had given an example that when we sleep and wake up. We say I slept well. The mind was asleep, so who knows that I slept well. Is it the atman ?

SS: So what if decision is by the mind? It loses its control n cant come back to control itself n takes some support like prana to control itself. So it is indirect only. Like if a person is drowning n cant save himself, he decides to hold on to a floating log. Now what saved him? If one says he decided to hold on to the log and so he saved himself its not correct. He saved himself indirectly through a log.

Go back to Basics neelima. Atma is non-doer and non-enjoyer.  Atma does not know about deep sleep. Basic part of the mind knows. Mind, intellect, memory and ego are 4 aspects of subtle body. Mind, intellect n ego become unmanifest in deep sleep. Memory records absence of everything

NP: Yes Swamiji thank you so much for the explanation. I kept at it because I was not sure of what I was understanding. And about the sleep what u explained to ram Kumar earlier about in deep sleep there is a small prt which remains functioning . I read that and hence asked that question. I knew I misunderstood. ☺️Thanks for the wonderful explanation 😀

Upadesh Saar : Verse 12 (Day 1)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
A searching intellect may come to feel that he is the mind. But his mind is also regulated, controlled and guided, by his intellect. So then,  can he be, in essence his intellect?
As we deeply ponder over, is it not a fact, that we are conscious of our own intellect and it's endless dance of ideas.........
Therefore,  the knower-of-the-intellect must be the essential factor in me!!
This Consciousness that illumines the thought and the emotions must be the ultimate me in my bosom.

Source:
Book - Vakya Vritti
Chapter - introduction
Page - 6

SS: What is the logic or reason behind the fact that controlling the breath controls the mind?
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RK: Slow breathing .. Less thoughts ..

Su: Iam not aware... have been wanting to know what could be the physiological explanation.

GP: There clearly is a correlation between our breathing and the state of our mind.
When we are agitated, our breathing becomes faster. And there are times we unconsciously take a long deep breath to slow down our breathing, to steel ourselves (mentally prepare ourselves) before we face some difficult challenge.
Another example is the deep, rhythmic breathing when we are asleep (and our minds are inactive).

Su: Could be that breathing rate controls the heart rate.. hence the  cardiac system and the peripheral nervous system kind of settles to become calm which regulates mood ... and mood is known to control the frequency and content of thoughts generated by the brain.

GP: And maybe it also works vice-versa?
That if I control my thoughts through japa/ prayer/ meditation, my physiological functions also get calmer/ regulated?

Su: Yes it works both ways definitely

SS: Yes its true. There is a deeper spiritual reason too. Think!

VS: Agree to the heart and agitation reduction points. I have a feeling breath concentration also helps reducing the speed of breathing. It helps bring in good thoughts and flush out bad thoughts that cause agitation maybe because the inhaled air also reaches the Brain. It helps clear off any thoughts in the mind like a fan. Thus helps us concentrate on the silence.

Su: Is it that when Iam controlling my breathing,  Iam paying attention to my breath.  Hence Attn capacity increases and slowly I learn to witness my breath without distractions.... which gradually leads to single pointed focus.

VN: I think the same point as Sunita

VS: But why breath specifically

Su: Because I think it is seen that when focussing on breath the moment u get distracted the breath control stops and it is easy to detect the distraction... am I making sense... not sure if I conveyed it properly

NG: Breath may be significant because it represents the prana shakti - life force in us and observing the same / going to the source of it is going closer to understanding "who am I"?

NP: Swamiji breath belongs to which kosha?
Maybe the breath is subtler than the mind, so it controls the mind?

SS: Breath can't be subtler than the mind

NP: Was just shooting in the dark Swamiji

AV: We breathe all the time but not consciously. Just like thoughts running through our mind. So when we focus on one ....we also learn to focus on the other.

SS: Ramana Maharshi gives the spiritual reason in verse 12:

Mind can reflect consciousness and pranas have power of action. They are two branches of the same tree i.e Maya Shakti of the Lord. (Pulling one branch pulls the other also).

Verse 12:
chitta-vaayavah chit-kriyaa yutaah
Shaakhayordvayee shakti mulakaah.
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RP: Swamiji is this referring to Kriya shakti and Icha shakti? Kriya of the pranas and Icha of the mind? Understand Icha in this case does not translate to desire.

SS: This is referring to maya shakti in general. If we speak about iccha kriya n jnana shakti then we can say mind has icha n jnana shakti. Prana has kriya shakti.

Su: Swamiji right now Iam lost... unable to understand. Will go home and read Guruji's commentary and get back.

SS: K

Upadesh Saar : Verse 11 (Day 2)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
The manifest (birth) is your place of work, and the unmanifest (death) is your home. Are you ever scared to go back home?

Source:
Book: Tapovan Prasad
Issue: December 2005
Page: 43

MN: Beautiful👌

SS: The analogy of the birds caught in the net is to signify that as long as we focus/control the Prana, mind remains controlled like the birds cant fly as long as they are in the net. As soon as the net is lifted, the birds fly again. Same way, the mind again starts its wandering as soon as the control on Prana is dropped
Ramana Maharshi indicates here that mere pranayama and quietude of mind is only a means. By itself it cannot lead to the goal of mind abiding in the heart(Self).
Control of Prana is Pranayama. Breath observation is called Prana-Vikshana, where one merely focuses on the inhalation ad exhalation as it is happening. One does not control it or breathe in a specific ratio.

Practice of the week: Spend 5minutes in the morning and 5 minutes in the evening, merely observing the breath. If mind wanders bring it back to breath observation. This will make the mind and intellect sharp, subtle and single-pointed.

GP: Thanks swamiji