RP: On the 12th verse Swamiji - it appears the power to know and power to act come from the same source and are linked like 2 branches. So by controlling the action (breath) we try to pull the mind. Take help from gross to get to the subtle! Almost similar thought in japa - start with loud chanting and go quieter. Several ways to get to the mind - seems to be central and essential in our journey.
GP: Makes sense ram. But why does it say that the 'mind reflects consciousness'?
SS: Very well said Ramkumarji. Mind or subtlebody alone has the capacity to express life as consciousness. Inert things are different from sentient because they dont have a mind.
RP: Thank you Swamiji. To GP's qn - mind reflecting consciousness. That's probably why we are so interested in the mind! Still mind is nothing but consciousness are things we have read. Loud japa to silent japa to just silence - I think the key is here - mind it!
So if you can't get to the mind directly - get to it via its gross relatives. Inspector Shankar tumhari maa mere kabze mein hain type!
SS: Mind is subtler than prana and can desire, feel, perceive etc and gain knowledge. But Prana is necessary to energise the body and to act. Mind cannot energise the body in absence of Prana. Hence mind and body are linked together by Prana. So controlling prana helps to control body and mind.
Prana is not mere breath. It is all 5 Pranas. But when we say Prana-vikshana or observe the prana then it mainly means breath-observation.
GP: So then Swamiji, if Prana enlivens and energises the body, isn't it more important than the mind? Mind cannot enliven the body. In fact without the prana-shakti the mind cannot find expression. Then how are they equated?
But at the same time, I understand when you say that the mind can gain knowledge, can desire, feel, perceive, etc.
But is the Prana dependant on the mind? What is the dependency?
RP: I don't know true answer, but we have observed that sometimes some one is very old or sick (pranas are not v bright) but mind is still very alert!
KG: Mind as in subtle body remains irrespective of jiva's birth. Prana along with gross body is born and worn out at death. So mind is independent of Prana, but using Prana and body it can express aloud.
SS: Prana is vital energy. Mind is subtle energy. Both derive their power from maya which inturn derives it from Consciousness. So both are dependent on Consciousness. Between both, mind is subtler because though mind cannot energise the body by itself, it guides the pranas to energise. Without mind pranas will not know what to do n how to do.
@Krishna: pranas are also part of subtle body. At birth only gross body is born. Vasanas, Mind, intellect, 5 Pranas and 10 senses get associated with the body at birth and disassociated at death.
KG: Thx Swamiji for the correction. Need to study the prakarana granthas again.
SS: Tattvabodh.
GP: Thanks Swamiji. Now it is crystal clear.
RP: Swamiji question - can we really say pranas can't function without the mind? Eg deep sleep state - pranas are working but mind is inactive. Probably runs on auto pilot? But it is also observed that mind can make the pranas work faster for eg when it senses danger or is angry. But we know we can train ourselves to break the auto reflex. Like taking a deep breath or counting to 10 when we are angry. So it appears mind can and does influence directly but there is an element of independence by which we can reverse or resist the influence. And is probably this aspect that helps us in verse 12.
SS:
1. In Deepsleep there is a small part of the mind which remains functioning. Conscious n subconscious mind becomes dormant.
2. Prana is born out of rajasik aspect of 5 elements and mind from sattvik aspect of 5 elements. Hence mind is subtler than prana n controls prana.
3.Actually all functions continue of prana as long as prarabdha karma is there. When karma gets over then prana stops. So prana is not independent of mind or karma. If it was, then prana would decide our moods as well as our life span. But we see that moods n mind affects prana more often n when we are not able to control mind then we may use prana for indirect control. (Tumhari maa mere kabze me hain types 😜)
RP: Understood Swamiji! All coming together now. Thank you very much. This must be like surprise viva for you every day with people shooting qns. Hats-off.
SS: Good opportunity to reflect. 😄
Su: Wow!! I come back to group.. and too much to reflect on....
NP: Swamiji the mind itself directs the prana to take deep breaths etc to control the mind's agitation. So I'm thinking there is no indirect control, only direct control of the prana by the mind.
Because even if we want to calm the mind with breathing it is the mind itself which directs the prana
SS: Its true that mind directs but still the control is indirect because mind is regulating itself through Prana and not through thinking.
NP: But the final decision is by the mind
RP: Nilima many parents think they make the final decision and not the kids. But you know how it works !
NP: Hahaha Ramkumar I said the above from an eg I heard long back in the discussion about diff betn the mind and intellect. The child is the mind and father intellect. In the shop the child cries for the toy, and the father gives in and buys it. The final decision to buy is the father's
RP: Sometimes the mother gets her kids to say something to get the desired final decision from the father! Same way - part of your mind accepts and cooperates with breath control etc. for the greater benefit
RP: Yea - same thing our messages crossed
NP: Hmm yeah.😀
Swamiji once Guruji had given an example that when we sleep and wake up. We say I slept well. The mind was asleep, so who knows that I slept well. Is it the atman ?
SS: So what if decision is by the mind? It loses its control n cant come back to control itself n takes some support like prana to control itself. So it is indirect only. Like if a person is drowning n cant save himself, he decides to hold on to a floating log. Now what saved him? If one says he decided to hold on to the log and so he saved himself its not correct. He saved himself indirectly through a log.
Go back to Basics neelima. Atma is non-doer and non-enjoyer. Atma does not know about deep sleep. Basic part of the mind knows. Mind, intellect, memory and ego are 4 aspects of subtle body. Mind, intellect n ego become unmanifest in deep sleep. Memory records absence of everything
NP: Yes Swamiji thank you so much for the explanation. I kept at it because I was not sure of what I was understanding. And about the sleep what u explained to ram Kumar earlier about in deep sleep there is a small prt which remains functioning . I read that and hence asked that question. I knew I misunderstood. ☺️Thanks for the wonderful explanation 😀
GP: Makes sense ram. But why does it say that the 'mind reflects consciousness'?
SS: Very well said Ramkumarji. Mind or subtlebody alone has the capacity to express life as consciousness. Inert things are different from sentient because they dont have a mind.
RP: Thank you Swamiji. To GP's qn - mind reflecting consciousness. That's probably why we are so interested in the mind! Still mind is nothing but consciousness are things we have read. Loud japa to silent japa to just silence - I think the key is here - mind it!
So if you can't get to the mind directly - get to it via its gross relatives. Inspector Shankar tumhari maa mere kabze mein hain type!
SS: Mind is subtler than prana and can desire, feel, perceive etc and gain knowledge. But Prana is necessary to energise the body and to act. Mind cannot energise the body in absence of Prana. Hence mind and body are linked together by Prana. So controlling prana helps to control body and mind.
Prana is not mere breath. It is all 5 Pranas. But when we say Prana-vikshana or observe the prana then it mainly means breath-observation.
GP: So then Swamiji, if Prana enlivens and energises the body, isn't it more important than the mind? Mind cannot enliven the body. In fact without the prana-shakti the mind cannot find expression. Then how are they equated?
But at the same time, I understand when you say that the mind can gain knowledge, can desire, feel, perceive, etc.
But is the Prana dependant on the mind? What is the dependency?
RP: I don't know true answer, but we have observed that sometimes some one is very old or sick (pranas are not v bright) but mind is still very alert!
KG: Mind as in subtle body remains irrespective of jiva's birth. Prana along with gross body is born and worn out at death. So mind is independent of Prana, but using Prana and body it can express aloud.
SS: Prana is vital energy. Mind is subtle energy. Both derive their power from maya which inturn derives it from Consciousness. So both are dependent on Consciousness. Between both, mind is subtler because though mind cannot energise the body by itself, it guides the pranas to energise. Without mind pranas will not know what to do n how to do.
@Krishna: pranas are also part of subtle body. At birth only gross body is born. Vasanas, Mind, intellect, 5 Pranas and 10 senses get associated with the body at birth and disassociated at death.
KG: Thx Swamiji for the correction. Need to study the prakarana granthas again.
SS: Tattvabodh.
GP: Thanks Swamiji. Now it is crystal clear.
RP: Swamiji question - can we really say pranas can't function without the mind? Eg deep sleep state - pranas are working but mind is inactive. Probably runs on auto pilot? But it is also observed that mind can make the pranas work faster for eg when it senses danger or is angry. But we know we can train ourselves to break the auto reflex. Like taking a deep breath or counting to 10 when we are angry. So it appears mind can and does influence directly but there is an element of independence by which we can reverse or resist the influence. And is probably this aspect that helps us in verse 12.
SS:
1. In Deepsleep there is a small part of the mind which remains functioning. Conscious n subconscious mind becomes dormant.
2. Prana is born out of rajasik aspect of 5 elements and mind from sattvik aspect of 5 elements. Hence mind is subtler than prana n controls prana.
3.Actually all functions continue of prana as long as prarabdha karma is there. When karma gets over then prana stops. So prana is not independent of mind or karma. If it was, then prana would decide our moods as well as our life span. But we see that moods n mind affects prana more often n when we are not able to control mind then we may use prana for indirect control. (Tumhari maa mere kabze me hain types 😜)
RP: Understood Swamiji! All coming together now. Thank you very much. This must be like surprise viva for you every day with people shooting qns. Hats-off.
SS: Good opportunity to reflect. 😄
Su: Wow!! I come back to group.. and too much to reflect on....
NP: Swamiji the mind itself directs the prana to take deep breaths etc to control the mind's agitation. So I'm thinking there is no indirect control, only direct control of the prana by the mind.
Because even if we want to calm the mind with breathing it is the mind itself which directs the prana
SS: Its true that mind directs but still the control is indirect because mind is regulating itself through Prana and not through thinking.
NP: But the final decision is by the mind
RP: Nilima many parents think they make the final decision and not the kids. But you know how it works !
NP: Hahaha Ramkumar I said the above from an eg I heard long back in the discussion about diff betn the mind and intellect. The child is the mind and father intellect. In the shop the child cries for the toy, and the father gives in and buys it. The final decision to buy is the father's
RP: Sometimes the mother gets her kids to say something to get the desired final decision from the father! Same way - part of your mind accepts and cooperates with breath control etc. for the greater benefit
RP: Yea - same thing our messages crossed
NP: Hmm yeah.😀
Swamiji once Guruji had given an example that when we sleep and wake up. We say I slept well. The mind was asleep, so who knows that I slept well. Is it the atman ?
SS: So what if decision is by the mind? It loses its control n cant come back to control itself n takes some support like prana to control itself. So it is indirect only. Like if a person is drowning n cant save himself, he decides to hold on to a floating log. Now what saved him? If one says he decided to hold on to the log and so he saved himself its not correct. He saved himself indirectly through a log.
Go back to Basics neelima. Atma is non-doer and non-enjoyer. Atma does not know about deep sleep. Basic part of the mind knows. Mind, intellect, memory and ego are 4 aspects of subtle body. Mind, intellect n ego become unmanifest in deep sleep. Memory records absence of everything
NP: Yes Swamiji thank you so much for the explanation. I kept at it because I was not sure of what I was understanding. And about the sleep what u explained to ram Kumar earlier about in deep sleep there is a small prt which remains functioning . I read that and hence asked that question. I knew I misunderstood. ☺️Thanks for the wonderful explanation 😀
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