Upadesh Saar : Verse 11 (Day 1)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
A complete and fully rewarding "philosophy of life" must contain three gospels - "The Gospel Of Krishna", "The Gospel Of Laughter" and the "The Gospel Of Work".
Let us live fully obeying these three Gospels in our day-to-day life. Certainly then we will come to enjoy what is the best that is possible in this world.
"The Gospel Of Krishna" will bring us worldly peace and spiritual unfoldment.
"The Gospel Of Laughter" shall bring us relaxation, health and rewarding glory.
"The Gospel Of Work" shall make us partners with Him in His great-grand-plan for the world.
These three alone can bring us in themselves, enduring achievements in life. We must taste this; the supreme privilege and prerogative of our higher evolution as man..... We Must.

Source:
Book - Chinmaya Lahiri
Topic - Laugh Away
Page - 64

SS: Verse 11: By the restrain of the pranas the mind becomes absorbed. This is a means of checking the mind like the birds trapped in the net.

Vaayu-rodhanaat leeyate manah.
Jaala-pakshivat rodha-saadhanam.

Ramana maharshi starts the raja yoga description now. Why does he give the analogy of birds trapped in the net?

JV: I understand the part of feeling trapped. Also full focus on the self. However can't link it beyond this. It would definitely make you alert.
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KG: The moment the trap is removed, the birds fly of in the directions possible. Mind too, has a natural tendency to keep chewing on objects. So the means here looks like the way to make sure Mind has limited movement or moment in the direction required.
Also the Hunter fools the birds into the trap. Can we fool our OWN MIND into a trap :) thinking...

RP: Our minds tend to fly freely and usually to the past or future. Trapping example given here and the net used is prana or breathing (vayuu) suggests absorbing the mind in the present. Like the birds trapped in the net are grounded but at the same time alive and alert too.

GP: Good one ram!
The mind left unrestrained tends to fly free in multiple directions with no focus.
We have learned that there is a direct correlation between our prana (breathing) and the state of the mind.
Breath control can keep the mind grounded and focused and absorbed in the subject. So the prana acts like a net over the mind and keeps it from flying in all directions.

Su: Iam sure there is a definite science behind regulation of breath and mind management. Since it is difficult to bring the mind into single pointed focus just like that.... this method is the tool used.
The bird analogy as others have said is symbolic of how the mind hops from one preoccupation to another when left free. It goes in the direction it wants. But when restrained with the net of pranayama it can be kept in one place.

NP: Through the net the birds can see the world but it's experience is restricted. ??

‎KG: The Hunter(Intellect) becomes the Master of the birds(Mind). The birds have no choice but to be play in the restricted environment and fly off at any mistake from the Hunter (Demands Smartness so the Mind doesn't outwit).
Not sure if the verse conveys bringing the mind to Present. Pranayama as a tool to absorb the mind - I thought this means still the mind - thoughtlessness. Is being in the Present devoid of thoughts? Not clear to me.

Su: I think over here it means not allowing the mind to wander in the different fields that is does. So restrict the movement of the mind to experience that state...

Upadesh Saar : Verse 10 (Day 2)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
At each moment man has limited freedom to follow either the path of good or the path of pleasant.  Certainly,  man has not got a complete and unlimited freedom over the external circumstances but he has been given this limited freedom to be good or to be vicious in his moment to moment contact with the external world.  This limited liberty is the real character of freedom for the man,  by a wise use of which he can soar into the greater realms of perfection and become himself the God.

GP: Krishna, I also think that is how it is or is being indicated.
That the goal of all these paths is the same - awareness and then abidance in our true nature, our true Self.

This declaration also should give us all of us hope and inspiration. Because it says that whichever path we choose, depending on our personality and inclinations, we do not have to wonder if we're on the right path. We do not have to fret and wonder which path is better or superior or inferior.

What is important is to remember that whichever path we choose, the final destination is this state of abidance.

Now the question is : who has ascertained this? (it is said here that 'it has been ascertained')

Su: Agreed.... but this declaration can also give rise to licentiousness.  I guess having the right knowledge of the path and some structure to it is important.  Too much flexibility is also dangerous.

All paths lead to the same goal,  but how will I know it's right for me.  Is there a thing like some paths are more conducive for certain personalities and detrimental for some.  Is there some guidelines or is it that one starts walking along the path as per ones inclination and along the way experience teaches..... if the Guru is there to guide then will he stop some student from pursuing a path that is not conducive...
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KG: On who has ascertained - was assuming realized Masters using reasoning methodologies (Nyaya - logic)?

I too share Sunita's questions on which is the psychology test to be taken to ascertain THE PATH for this life. If there is no standard test, we have to rely on others advice or experiment each one.
I feel, each of paths followed require a very purist attitude labelling him a Bhakta or Karmi or Gyani etc. But can that be possible for initiates like us. Do we perfectly fall in a category. Don't we luv a bit of all paths.

SS: This verse is in the middle because it throws light on 2 yogas covered and 2 yet to be covered and tells us that all are for the same purpose. It is called dehli-deepa-nyaaya in sanskrit. A lamp kept at the threshold of a room will illumine outside and inside both.

Each one has to know by themselves whether they are predominantly action oriented or emotion oriented or knowledge oriented and choose the path accordingly. We all need a mix of all 3 because all have BMI but one path chosen consciously helps to evolve faster.

Another aspect is whichever path is chosen, the other two are already there in it. Think over it. So you buy 1 and get 2 free. 😄

JV: Yes totally agree. It is buy 1 get 2 free. Interesting. Krishna would totally appreciate this. What say?
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KG: 😄
Indirectly, ghooma ghoomake sab kuch karvarahe hai 😕

Swamiji, are these the Only fundamental paths (4 in all) ?

SS: Yes in vedanta there are only these 4 paths

NP: I think one gravitates to the path according to ones vasanas. We will choose only that path. Gurudev too has not restricted the activities of the mission to any one path. So it is more like one huge umbrella where each one can take shelter.
Also I feel sometimes we do deviate from our chosen path according to time and circumstances, and our mental state.
As long as one is walking the path and moving forward there will be growth.
Sorry I've been typing in bits and pieces.
 

Upadesh Saar : Verse 10 (Day 1)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
SAVE me help me please. As the slave of my passions, and a non-believer, all these years I know, I have no right to seek Thy help now. True,  I have no faith to meet Thee. I have nothing to offer except my own tears,  the fatigue of my indulgences, the canker of my selfishness, the sweat of my passions and the cords of my attachments. In fact, I don't really deserve to be saved,  yet,  Lord, Iam tired, trashed out completely, exhausted thoroughly - helplessly, wholly..... I surrender myself to Thee and Thy Grace.
Such a feeling of total surrender,  generated in this mental mood,  is called 'devotion' - true devotion of the heart.

GP: Ram, beautiful references to the bhajans

NP: Superb explanation Ram!

SS: Verse 10: it has been ascertained that the goal of the Yoga of action, devotion, ashtanga yoga and yoga of knowledge is the abidance of the mind in the heart(One's own Nature).

Hrt-sthale manah svasthataa kriya.
Bhakti-yoga-bodhaascha nischitam.
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KG: Doubt, why is this verse in the middle? We are yet to cover Astanga and Gyana yoga in the text.

Referring to Swamiji's reply to my question on Karma Yoga, indeed Bhakti and Karma are merging their paths in this goal.
By reference of all the Four paths, is more to be inferred...

Read Guruji's explanation - "goal of all spiritual practices is this abidance in SELF...its validated by Masters."

So indicating that the next set of Yogas are also culminating at same goal.

I see a need for a synthetic (mix) of all these paths. One path may predominate but I feel at this stage all may be required in some dose. Is that fine? Or a longer or shorter route as compared 2 purists?

Upadesh Saar : Verse 9 (Day 3)

‎RP: On the verse on supreme devotion - couple of related lines from popular bhajans-

1. Kabirdas - Prem gali ati sankri, tamein dou na samai. Jab mein tha tab Hari nahin, ab Hari hai mein nahin.
Hari and I (ego) can't co-exist. When completely identified with Hari - I disappear - the state of supreme devotion.

2. Meerabai. From the Famous bhajan - ghoongat ke pat khol tohe piya milenge
Soone mandir diya jalaake, aasan se mat dol re, ghoongat ke pat khol re , tohe piya milenge.
Talks of stillness (contemplation) and the ghoongat refers to thoughts ( of duality).
In the stillness of contemplation remove thoughts of duality - you will be united with The Lord. (Popular reference to ghoongat in suhag raat concept. As long as ghoongat exists no milan happens.)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
Ruthless discrimination is the secret of success.

However hungry you are, you will not eat a dead man, because your discrimination tells you of the abominable nature of the act. No lusty person,  even if he is of Ravana type, will think of embracing a dead queen. A man dying of thirst will not dare to drink some molten iron.
In all these cases our average discrimination tells us that the cure is more dangerous than the disease.

Similarly in our acute awareness, if we have brought, as a logical conclusion, the firm conviction that this world of objects - including our children, wealth,  possessions, our own body, mind and intellect - are all finite that brilliantly dance around us for a certain period of time and will certainly disappear without any notice or warning....

If this realization has come to our personal understanding,  certainly we shall get love and affection, and also learn to enjoy everything around us, but at the same time there would be a constant warning from somewhere deep in ourselves that nothing is permanent and that we should not barter away our existence depending entirely upon the finite bubbles of life.
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KG: Super examples Ramkumarji.
 

Upadesh Saar : Verse 9 (Day 2)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
We are a three-faceted equipment.  Where the body is at work, the mind of the worker should stand receptive and responsive, and his intellect alert and discriminative,  should assume full command of the body and the mind.  Such three-fold concentration is referred to as single pointedness and is indeed very hard to attain. Much sincere,  regular practice is needed - of polishing and integrating the personality.

JV: When we manifest devotion for a form, knowing very well that the power behind that form is all pervading, you starts seeing the supreme power in every activity of universe. To such an extent that you feel the presence of the  entity in everything and finally only the that presence no more of I is felt.
The form is basically a reference point. A trigger.

Su: Ok,  Iam unable to  intellectually grasp the concept of devotion with non duality.  If I identify with something how can I be devoted to it after that.

SS: Devotion with non-duality means devotion in its highest form is non-duality. Devotee and Lord merge. Devotion alone remains.

Like sleeper and sleeping cease and sleep alone remains

Su: Yes now I got it... thanks Swamiji.

JV: Absolutely.
 

Upadesh Saar : Verse 9 (Day 1)

SS: Verse 9: by the strength of the though(soham) firm abidance in the Existence principle is gained which is free from all thought modifications. This is supreme devotion.

Bhaava-shunya-sat-bhaava-susthitih.
Bhaavanaa-balaat bhaktiruttamaa.

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
The body is what it is because of its Prarabdha. Because of your Vasanas you have taken this body. Today the body moves, every minute, expressing its powerful Vasanas. The body will drop off once the Vasanas are exhausted. Till then it will continue to exist, food or no food. It will be looked after by its own Prarabdha.
If my body is not getting food, I become anxious for it. However, when this body was born, it was born without consulting me. The mighty Law by which it was born will keep it going for the purpose for which it was born, if it falls off, never mind, let it go.
Understanding this well, strengthen your mind and protect it from all such agitations.

MN: How can body have its Prarabdha?
Our actions determines our Prarabdha...Am I correct?

NB: I guess it means actions done by the body

JV: Nope body is inert and in capable of acting on its own.

MN: Yes so what does that statement means

NB: Mmm actions done by the jiva who is the BMI? ??

SS: Pl read the quote again. Gurudev has explained it in the quote itself clearly

MN: 🙏

SS: To exhaust certain vasanas which are due to past karma, we take bodies. Till those vas anas n karmas are there body will be there. Then it drops off. The vasanas n karmas which are ready to give results are called prarabdha. To exhaust it, a body is required. Hence Gurudev used the expression prarabdha of the body. Karmas are done by jeeva and phala also experienced by jeeva. Body is required for this.

NB: When we contemplate on ' i am consciousness' continuously then the I drops and ' am consciousnes ' remains which is the existance principal and leads to non-duality. This is purest form of bhakti.
Am not very sure if my interpretation is right.so i didn't say Swamiji

‎KG: This is like the example you gave Swamiji of someone calling a boy named "Krishna".
Karma yoga that we discussed earlier resulted only in Chitta Shuddhi (purity of mind), but Bhakti yoga has culminated in the merger of the self in HIM.

MN: Swamiji I had a basic question does Prarabhdha and destiny mean the same or are they different...when we say ' It's my Prarabhdha' it means destiny..right?

Su: Sorry Swamiji I was caught up in few urgent things hence could not participate.  Will be able do to so from now on.  Apologise

VS: Swamiji... Regarding verse 9 does thought modification means various thoughts about The Lord his name, beauty, glories etc. So there are still various thoughts in the mind. Again in Nirguna contemplation there are thoughts logically analyzing or appreciating. That's the reason they are called interrupted contemplation. While in Soham there only one thought, no more analysis(bhava shunya) so lesser interruption. At this point there is total complete surrender, no more analysis to be done. This total and complete trust, faith or surrender is greatest Bhakti.
Because now the merger has happened.
Any comments...

SS: I will reply to everyone in the evening

VS: Swamiji evening...
Good evening

SS: Nityamukta: from bhakti with duality where one worships the Lord and feels one is different, one moves to the feeling of oneness and attempts union with the Lord through soham and ultimately comes to realise the state of oneness which is beyond all thoughts. This is the highest form of bhakti called paraa-bhakti.

Krishna: karma yoga also led to supreme realisation when it was said whole world is seen as HIS manifestation. Bhakti yoga also leads to the Supreme as described above

Mitesh: prarabdha is destiny - past karma.

Vinod, read the explanation given to nityamukta. Thats the meaning of verse 9

VS: Thank you Swamiji! Ok Swamiji and I'll confirm my understanding.

GP: Swamiji, without this clarity the verse can be confusing.
Because our normal understanding of devotion is that it is possible only in duality. But here, the devotion that is being referred to has no altar, no devotee and no act of devotion.

SS: Yes. This is the state of oneness where the Lord, devotee and devotion disappear. It is called sadhya-bhakti. The devotion with an altar is called aparaa bhakti or sadhana-bhakti.

One of the etymological meanings of bhakti is - bhanj aamardane, which means to break and destroy. Devotion destroys attachment on one hand and duality on the other. Hence in hindi we always say bhakt wo jo kabhi vibhakt na ho. Devotee is one who is never separate from the Lord

SR: Swamiji, when non duality disappears, then what happens to rituals and pooja, i guess there is no need anymore bcos one doesnot see the Lord as separate entity.

SS: There is no need but masters may do it to set example for others to do. Like Gurudev used to do japa and also establish temples etc

GP: That's the beauty of their large-heartedness
They have gone beyond all this and yet they will do this for us

VS: Yes

NB: Thank you Swamiji for.clarifying😊🙏

Upadesh Saar : Verse 8 (Day 3)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
If,  after all our efforts the Vasanas are not totally exhausted, then the balance that remains to trouble us is called "destiny".
Man can change his destiny not by wishing for it.. but by working for it.

SS: Verse 8 is speaking about bhakti because pooja and japa were described earlier and next stage is contemplation. What is contemplation in the context of bhakti?

VS: Hari Om Swamiji and everyone! Coming to verse 8,    I need to think about Lord Krishna as not the name and the form but Him as the omnipresent and the cause of everything in the world by the rule of negation.
Any comments...

AD: Contemplation with regards to bhakti Nirguna with form is one type of contemplating and saguna the formless which is ultimately we. Have to reach

VS: Yes I remember reading Saguna is interrupted and Nirguna is uninterrupted Contemplation
So does that mean focused imagination of the Lord's form is Contemplation? Does imagination of His Glories also fall under Contemplation?
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KG: I think in Bhakti - Reflection is about knowing and being convinced of the Glories of the form of Lord chosen. Contemplation may be more subtle.

SS: Thinking of the Lord as different from oneself and hence contemplation on His name, form, attributes, abode, leelas etc is contemplation with difference. Contemplating on oneness with Him through Soham or feeling oneness with HIM through surrender is contemplation without difference.  In both these, interruptions happen as per our purity of mind and devotion.
Contemplation on oneness with the Lord is indeed subtler than on His name, form etc
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KG: Arunaji, I think
Nirguna = Attributeless/Formless. Hope u meant the same.

VS: Yes
Swamiji... When it is Soham... Does it mean it's not Bhakti anymore.

SS: No. Love is complete only in union with the beloved.  Soham is the feeling of oneness with the Lord. Ramakrishna was worshipping mother kali and offering flowers to her and when his surrender was complete he realises oneness with her and started offering flowers on his own head

VS: So is it possible that mahatmas in dvaita also experience this oneness but don't intellectually accept it as Soham?

SS: I have no idea about it.

VS: Ok
From the above example of Sri Ramakrishna, Should one consciously contemplate on Soham... Or does one reach that feeling automatically.

SS: In bhakti marga it Will happen automatically when surrender happens completely.

VS: Thanks Swamiji

Upadesh Saar : Verse 8 (Day 2)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
India has always been the Guru of the world.  Our generation has been called upon now to lead and guide the world,  not in killing, not in destroying,  not in warfare but in learning and understanding how to face problems of the outer world.  For that the study of scriptures is absolutely necessary and we must also learn to practice it in our everyday life.

‎RP: Back to verse 8 - compared to contemplation with duality contemplation on oneness is better. I remember many shlokas where going beyond pairs of opposites are encouraged in daily living.  (sheet-ushna, sukha-dukha, maan-apmaan, labhalabhau jayajaou etc ). I am sure these are mentioned so we can get to the stage of practicing verse 8.

VS: Actually I seemed to understand that when Pooja, japa, nidhidhyasana are practiced regularly the pair of opposites are taken care of. Isn't it so? Because I start to
Understand the jada nature of it or I accept the situations as Yagnaprasad. Isn't it

 

Upadesh Saar : Verse 8 (Day 1)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
Live day to day. Watch the Tamaasha at home and in the world outside. Both inside and outside your house do your best ungrudgingly for the welfare of others.  But expect nothing from them. Change can come in others only by His grace,  never by our efforts for them to grow.

MN: Can someone explain the above thought for the day

VN: @Mitesh: there are two ways of increasing the value from a given fraction a/b. Either increase the value of 'a' or reduce the value of 'b'. Fractional rule, std 6th 😁
I think, the meaning is....When we try to increase the numerator, we will be adding on to more vasanas on our pile. Instead, when we entertain lesser desires, we are not creating new vasanas and thus the Happiness Quotient increases.

MN: So in effect what the Rishis are trying to say the ideal state is when you don't entertain desires you reach infinite happiness😊
Because the denominator would be zero right

VN: 👍
a/0 = Infinity. It is also said to be Indeterminate or 'Not defined' in some contexts. i think all would hold good in this situation.

MN: But from a pure mathematical point of view if you don't entertain any desires then you would not have any desires to fulfil...
So wouldn't that make it 0/0😬

VN: @mitesh: but there's already some desires we carry. So numerator is greater than 0.

MN: Yes you are right from our past births

SS: Verse 8: compared to contemplation with duality, contemplation on Oneness with the Divine through Soham is more purifying.
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GK: The verse directly points 2 Advaita philosophy. The end results of all the tools we discussed should culminate in contemplation on the Advaita principle. Here I had a doubt on what type of realization did the stalwarts like Madhavacharya(dwaita) or Ramanujacharya(vishista-advaita) or say proponents of kashmiri shivism.... gain. Didn't they reach Advaita (oneness) before they noted the thesis

Or did they just functioned on instructons from the Lord to bring in variety in school of thoughts for the benefit of variety of intellects

Will it be wrong 2 term just Shankara's philosophy as leading 2 ultimate freedom?

Sorry Swamiji 4 I diverted from the verse itself and got into comparison mode.

VS: Swamiji... A very powerful question... Will think and respond
And Krishna the comparison or difference is very thin silver line I feel... So it doesn't make anyone inferior.
At our level everyone is superior
Swamiji is it because advaita goes beyond BMI while we are stuck with a name and form (time n space) in dvaita
At our level we are following a mixture of dvaita and a dvaita
Swamiji I just realised I was talking about Nirguna or uninterrupted contemplation. Does this type of contemplation exist in dvaita too?

SS: Krishna, the concept of moksha is different in each path. Do more research on their principles, concept and means of moksha and you will know that their realisation is not same as advaita

Vinod: uninterrupted chanting of Lord's name exists in bhakti also
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GK: Thank you Swamiji! Will do some homework.

Upadesh Saar : Verse 7 (Day 2)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
You should not expect man to be grateful when you do everything good for their welfare. Else you will become very cynical about man, which is tragic for a spiritual sadhak. Do what is to be done as best as you know and march on to do more..... never look back, nor try to hear over your own shoulders.  Even those who do apparent and real harm to you is in himself seeking his own self-punishment.  Have pity for him,  please. He deserves your pity more than you deserve and need his goodness.  THINK!!

SS: What we are ready for and can attain by a little stretching is effortless for us. What we are not ready for appears tough and one cant sustain it. Verse 5 spoke about pooja. Verse 6 spoke about japa and verse 7 about contemplation. Many of us would like to contemplate and when we try we either sleep or mind wanders. So its better to try out the simpler options first, to cultivate purity and single pointedness. If mental japa can happen continuously and we experience joy of taking His name then it means we are ready for contemplation on the formless.

VS: Swamiji is there any directive on the speed of Japa.
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KG: I was thinking... whatever speed help achieve the goal of Japa. Going by the yardstick - Manas japa better than loud japa, slower the better. But the speed should absorb the seeker. To start with some pace may help to keep the mind focussed.

Upadesh Saar : Verse 7 (Day 1)

SS: Verse 7: like the smooth flow of ghee and a river at its source, single pointed contemplation is better than interrupted contemplation.

Aajya-dhaaraya srotasaa samam.
Sarala-chintanam viralatah param.

What is the significance of the two analogies used by Ramana Maharshi?

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
"Plan out your work" and then never neglect to "work out your plan". The former without the latter is sheer waste; and the later without the former is mere unproductive confusion.  Where these two are followed sincerely, success will shine out, in spite of all piled up difficulties enroute.

Su: Ghee has a smooth uninterrupted flow,  without any break in between. That is how contemplation should be. Our mind should be continuously flowing towards the object of our contemplation without getting distracted by other thoughts and desires in between. 
That is tough and needs years of preparation according to me.

About the river,  am a little confused. River breaks in between when there are obstacles,  meaning it's not as smooth as ghee.  It does not break away but it's not as smooth.  But a river no matter what the obstacles are continually flows and reaches the destination - the ocean.

Ok,  here it says at its source. So there are no obstacles at the source of the river,  soo....

NP: Is it about one gets to the stage of ghee. You have to ferment milk to curd, then churn it to get butter then heat the butter to get ghee!
So like that we have to ferment our mind with the right knowledge and thinking, then churn it with mananam and heat it with tapa to get smooth flow of contemplation

Su: I guess that's the preparation needed to reach the ghee state.

NP: River at its source is clean and pure. So probably when our mind is already very pure it is easier to contemplate
Like Ramana Maharishi

SR: Nicely said Neelima!

SS: Well said sunitha and neelima. Ghee is symbolic of continuous flow and single pointed contemplation. River is pure at the source.  Purity and single pointedness both are necessary for contemplation.

How do we know if our mind is pure or not?

NB: I think that when one sits for contempletion, if the mind has not gone through its stages of growth then the mind wanders to thoughts. That's interrupted contemplation. But when the mind is trained through japa, knowledge then the mind contemplates well.

Without practice we might get uniterrupted contemplation at the start compared to the ghee or flow of river but this is not good in the long run. It's like directly jumping to 10th standard as it might be detrimental to our progres further.

Flow of river, ghee because it runs without effort
It makes great sense everyone...thank you

NP: M&s
We will know when our mind is calm, all the time devoid of agitations. This will happen only when we don't have the feeling of other. Meaning when we see the world as HIS manifestation. All our problems arise because of the difference we feel.

SS: For that vision of oneness purity is required. So it seems to be vicious circle then.

NB: Yes Swamiji.. and to me seems like somethin which is not that easy to acheive

NP: So when we don't have that vision of oneness, we know that our mind is not pure. We will have to work on it.
Swamiji, if I surrender completely to The Lord, do my japa, and study regularly, will this oneness happen as a byproduct?

SS: Oneness cannot happen as a byproduct of sadhana. Sadhana can purify the mind and a pure mind sees that oneness was always there and That alone is.

NP: Thank you Swamiji. 😀
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RP: Pure mind characteristics - more peaceful , less attachment and more vairagya, less likes & dislikes, less of kaam krodha moha etc. more alert, more concentrated etc can be said.
Simple yardstick can be calm and alert mind.

SS: 👍

VS: Nice analogy of Ghee and source of river. Nice explanation of Ghee by Neelima. Purest form of mind. Easily burnt and disappears. Maybe that's the reason why it is used as a saamagri. Our mind also should be burnt and reach such a state that it merges with The Lord.
This is one way to train the mind
Another way is to reach the source of the mind where it is   Purest like the source of the river
What is a calm mind... Thoughtless mind.
I feel pure and calm mind are same

DB: Vision of oneness comes when there is no fear; fear comes because of a sense of individuality & this sense of individuality expresses itself as likesm/dislikes,  love/hate, I, mine, yours- absence of these pairs of opposites is a pure mind

Upadesh Saar : Verse 6 (Day 1)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
A temple of God is not so glorious as the house of His devotees; for in the latter He lives while in the former He only waits!!

VN: Hari Om! Couldnt participate in the discussions. Really beautiful ones...giving me more clarity and a lot of reminders. Thank you Swamiji and everyone.

SB: 🙏🙏🙏 quietly watching and learning. Thank you all.

SS: Verse 6: to chant or sing (glories of the Lord) is good. Superior to that is loud japa. Superior to loud japa is soft japa. Superior to soft japa is japa done by the mind. Effortless japa(japa-dhyanam) is the subtlest.

Uttama-stavaad uccha-mandatah.
Chittajam japa-dhyaanam uttamam.

This verse gives us the order of subtlety in practice of Japa. Ramana Maharshi covers pooja, japa and chintanam one after another after mentioning it in verse 4.  In verse 5 he spoke about pooja. Now he mentions about japa.

Uttama-stava: It is said that chanting vedic mantras and hymns is superior and subtler to singing non-vedic hymns, stuties and stotrams. Why?

VN: Is it because stuties and stotrams are for a form of the Lord and Vedic Mantras are on the formless?

SS: Vedic hymns like rudram, narayana suktam, ganapati atharva are for form too. Also there are enuf stotrams for formless which are non-vedic. Eg nirvana shatkam

VN: Oh ok

VS: Swamiji is it because the Vedic hymns are not composed but are always present in the cosmos and heard by great Rishis.
So whenever they are chanted they move around like sound waves and have specific effects.

MN: Yeah I agree to an extent
I mean it is said Gayatri Mantra was revealed to Sage Yagnavalkya when he was meditating
Does anyone know any other Vedic hymns that are revelations and not composed by a particular author?

VS: So far as I know all Vedas fall under this and are therefore called Shruthis...

SS: Bingo vinod. 👍. Vedic mantras are revelations to the Rishis. They are not composed by humans. They are also science of sound vibrations and mantras chanted in intonations produce specific vibrations. Pranayama also happens automatically while chanting these mantras. Eg. If you chsnt ganapati atharvashirsha, the form of ganesha appears Automatically. Experiments have proved it. 
Shlokas and stutis are composed by rishis and are not science of sound though they also produce some vibrations.
What is important is devotion in chanting or singing overrides everything.

MN: Wow I didn't know all of this...Thank you so much Swamiji for sharing this😇

VS: So are they superior because they give faster results... or they connect faster... Swamiji?
So is Gayatri Mantra superior? But we find it so comfortable imagining a Lord by chanting a simpler Japa mantra. Why is it so?

SS: Superior only due to it being a revelation and science of sound. Yes gayatri mantra is the second most powerful mantra after om. Its the essence of vedic knowledge. Japa also uses vedic mantras or puranic mantras and is powerful method.

VS: Thanks Swamiji

Upadesh Saar : Verse 5 (Day 2)

VS: Swamiji I was starving for this class. Thanks. Regarding the topic of discussion, in addition to what Akka n Mitesh said...
When challenges go beyond control the prasada  buddhi goes for a toss.

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
At this moment we all, as members of society, are fully engaged in the standard way of doing things, the standard methods everywhere adopted by others according to the fashion of the times - this is termed here as loka-anu-vartanam. Since we live as we are living, we are what we are. If you want to lift your life into a greater ambit, you have to change your ways of living. If you want to gain hold on the spiritual path...... Change.
Without changing the old values of life and ways of life, a new dimension of life and living cannot be achieved.
You have to give up imitating the false values of others around you, meaning, stop living blindly a stamped blue-print of life, supplied by the fashions of the times or by sensuous men who seek their fulfillment in sense-indulgences. Just living the routine life of unintelligent imitation of others in society is the surest way to a life of sensuality.
For spiritual purpose, a most intelligently re-planned way of life is to be followed. If you want to take up sincere sadhana, you have to redirect your life's flow.
Hence the first thing to be renounced is the 'blind following of the patterns of the time'- loka-anu-vartanam

VK: Hi is there any where I can catch up on all the discussions since start my what's app had crashed and hence was unable to participate

MN: Hari Om Vivek bhaiyya! You can catch all the earlier discussion here
For those who have just joined, you can visit the following blog to catch up e-satsang.blogspot.com
 vedercise.blogspot.com

SR: Swamiji, what about an atheist who does not believe in Lord, thus will not view the world as HIS manifestation, yet want to do selfless actions, wants to inculcate a perfect attitude...is worshipping Lord only option to bring in such an attitude. - Sanjit

MN: I think even an atheist can do selfless service by dedicating all his actions to something higher- for example Nation or organisation
Our jawans who man our borders are the best examples of selflessness- putting nation above all Else🙏

SS: What is the goal of life as per atheist's thinking? That will determine what means should the atheist follow. Nothing prevents the atheist from serving selflessly. The verse is meant for those who want to dissolve the ego and realise oneness with the Divine which is infinite. Except the Infinite Lord whomever or whatever i serve, there will be limitations and duality.

An atheist is actually not a non-believer of God or Truth but a non-believer of prevalent concepts and depictions of God which dont appeal to his/her mind.

AM: Hari om,
Please register for Mumbais first CHYK and Sethukaari camp with Swamiji.
Everyone in this group is invited.
You can get your kids tok as we have a special sessions for them as well. 😊

MN: Why is then that the conventional definition of atheist defines it simply as non-believer in GOD
I agree with your definition Swamiji and I feel an atheist is someone who needs validation and logic to transform from a non-believer to believer

SS: People get attached to their ideas and create divisions like believer and non-believer. Happens in everything. supporters and opposition.
Especially about God because it is intangible and beyond all concepts.

MN: True🙏

JV: Even when we talk about atheist, they have anti notion of the word GOD. Instead they will use natural power or higher power. GOD word has been misused a lot to create divisions. And therefore sometimes we want to refrain using it. In the process we negate everything that possibly could have explained or made me aware of this higher power.

SS: True

VS: I have a doubt from where Sunita left yesterday. What must my attitude be and what must I practice in order to see God in everyone...
Treat others with respect?

JV: Vinod. Its very simple. What reason do you have not respect others? And strangely answer is none :) hai na.

GP: Swamiji, just to add to yesterday's discussion. I think that unless one goes through the path of Pooja, japa and contemplation, one cannot serve the world with an attitude of serving the lord.
And without going through these self-preparatory exercises, we will not have the right attitude of devotion and service.
Till then, whatever 'social service' we do will not be true service of the lord (much as we would like to believe so) but we would be serving our own ego!
And when we say that such social service is enough and all the other steps (Pooja, japa, study) are not required or are a waste, then we're just finding excuses or demonstrating our ignorance.

VS: Thanks Jigs and I agree Bhaiya

GP: But it is important to also realise that we would have truly 'ripened and evolved' through our sadhana only when we reach this state. Of being able to see the world as a reflection of the lord and serving the world with the same bhaav and devotion that we do our Pooja and japa.

VS: Somehow GP Bhaiya also indirectly answered my Question. God is so Great. The solution is nityanushtaana, Japa, Pooja

SS: Well said GPji

VS: In order to treat others with respect n spread happiness... I need to be happy first... And my Sadhana like Japa, Pooja will make my happy n peaceful within. Thanks a lot Bhaiya, jigs, Swamiji and everyone. You solved one of my issues when my mind was not available.

Upadesh Saar : Verse 5 (Day 1)

SS: Hari om. Was busy with sadhana day programme of 3rd august so could not continue upadesha saar. Am back now. Someone wanted the summary of thinking, reflection and contemplation. I am reposting what i had sent.

Wonderful interactions on the topic by everyone. Just to summarise: according to vedanta thinking is natural to the mind. It may be logical or illogical, structured or random, dull or bright etc.

Reflection or manan is to use scriptural logic to understand the nature of the Reality or world or Self. Yuktibhih anuchintanam is manan. It is to remove doubts and gain clarity and conviction. It can be done by oneself or through discussion with someone or a group or a lecture etc. Many ways are there for reflection.

Contemplation is called nididhyaasana. It is to remove contrary feeling that one has inspite of intellectual conviction. Vipareeta bhaavana is removed through contemplation. It is also the direct means to abide in the Reality by asserting that i am That. It is defined as adviteeya-vastuni sajaateeya-vritti-pravahaha. It is a natural consequence of reflection. No logic is used here. Words are used as pointers to lift the mind to the state indicated by the pointer and one lets go of words and pointers thereafter.

Eg. Manan would be to logically try and understand why i am not the bmi. Yet the feeling remains inspite of conviction that i am the body. Contemplation is to use pointers like chidananda rupah shivoham shivoham and drop the contrary feeling and abide in the state conveyed by chidananda rupah shivoham shivoham
We move to the next verse?

Su: Yes Swamiji

SK: Pl do Swamiji.

NG: Yes Swamiji...have been missing this class

SS: Verse 5: Serving the world with the attitude of serving the Lord is (true) worship of the Lord who is the wielder of the eight-fold forms.

Jagata isha-dhi yukta sevanam
Ashta-murti-bhrd devapujanam.

This is Ramana Maharshi's definition of Pooja. Highest form of worship is this.
Many people conveniently think that they are practising this and no other spiritual sadhana is required. How do we know whether we are ready and practicing this or its a trick of the mind?

NG: If we are truly practicing this, there should be no insistence on type of work that we will perform and insistence on a particular result? We should be able to do our duty to the best of our ability and accept whatever result as prasad - whether we like it or not?
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MN: Rightly said
That prasad-bhav should apply to every action in our life then only we can say we are living upto this

KG: It's a very lofty state to see and feel the entire world as Lord. One validation could be to check attachment to loved ones. Getting purified (chitta shuddhi or peace) by every and all acts (service) done in the world.
What is the eight-fold form mentioned here?

SR: To see the entire world as the Lord..umm! With loved ones, selfless serving- somewhat easier(attachment). But the same with others, ...even that 'snob' or 'cheat' or 'thankless'....the mere thought seems impossible to us, no?

NB: i think dat a feeling of humility cmes wid actions dedicated to d Lord..n as v advance in dis practice d sense of doership also dissolves..

V slowly learn to forgive n forget n start becomin detached n more accomodating in our daily lives..

SR: I think it is possible when we look beyond the object/person we are serving & simply focus on the right action with the right attitude to the best of our capacity. This practice over a period of time with constant introspection & cross checking can help us move to the next step where every action is dedicated to the lord.

NB: Hmm...it vl also bring about efficiency in our actions as v want to do best for d Lord

SK: Seeking the Lord through thought, word and deed...like Hanumanji ever at His service, giving our best always.

SS: What is important in this practice is our bhaav of bhakti and seva. Prasad buddhi etc can get us there but thats not referred to here. One should ask oneself these questions:

• Do i see the world as a manifestation of the Lord?
  If not, why dont i do worship of a form where atleast one form i can see as HIS manifestation? We dont do form worship and invoke devotion. Then how can we experience the whole world as HIS form?
• are my actions done with an attitude to serve HIM and give my best without compromise? Iswaraarpitam bhav is there or not? I have to check this. Eg. I may do exercise to lose weight but i can dedicate this to the Lord and then do it. I may serve my child but i can remember that HE alone manifests as the child and do whats needed.
• Do i feel devotion while acting? Not just devotion to the work or people or country but devotion to HIM because whom i have the power to work, feel and think? I can pause for a moment amidst work and feel grateful to HIM for all His Grace.

The world is made up of eight aspects: 5 elements, sun, moon and the Jeeva or Individuality. Thats why the Lord is called the one who wields the eight fold forms.

KG: Got it Swamiji!

JV: Now it is getting technical. I like it. This lord who wields eight fold form is ishhwara.

SS: Geeta calls it as ashtadhaa-prakriti. Lord controls it.
5 elements, mind, intellect and ego are called ashtadhaa prakriti there. In our earlier definition the moon there corresponds to the mind here and sun corresponds to the Intellect and jeeva corresponds to the ego.
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DA: Thanks Swamiji. For summarise

Su: I am thinking what should be my attitude to even start thinking/looking (intellectually) at the world as the Lord.

It will take a complete shift in paradigm. My definition of the Lord will also have to change. My concept of good and bad has to change. Will have to become flexible, in a structured way! Resistance has to get diluted. It's an entire rehab program... sounds more like a revolution against all that my mind may believe now..... this itself will take a life time

Right now we serve when we suits us (I speak for myself largely)... when everything else is taken care of.... this asks us to put the world before us...

Upadesh Saar : Verse 4 (Day 10)

SS: If we say - Ram come here! What happens? Whoever is Ram will respond by coming. How does that happen? Ram drops the word Ram, drops the word meaning - one who revels in all, drops the thinking that someone called ram is being called. He identifies with what Ram indicates - himself and feels i am being called and so he comes.
Same way in contemplation on sacchidananda, one drops the word, word-meaning, thinking of Sacchidananda as something other than me and identifies totally with the state of Self as one's nature.

Pooja is done with body, speech & mind. Japa with the speech & mind. Contemplation only with the mind. Each one is subtler than the other.

GP: Beautiful swamiji! I never looked at it from this perspective!