Upadesh Saar : Verse 14 (Day 1)

SS: Mano laya: mind is absorbed through pranayama or any spiritual practice. It is absorbed in the support it takes. @GPji - deep sleep also is manolaya. Mind is absorbed in ignorance and becomes unmanifest. Even there, memory is functioning bec absence of everything is noted. This absorbed mind is like the bird trapped below the net. This was the verse 11 analogy.

Mano nasha: mind has two aspects - functional mind and psychological mind. Psychological mind is the sense of psychological identity we have which separates us from others. It has likes n dislikes, attachment n aversion etc. Functional mind has only functional thoughts, skills, knowledge etc. What binds us is the psychological mind. Basis of this is ignorance. Hence mano-nasha is avidya naasha only. Functional thoughts dont bind us at all. They will continue as long as body is there. Such a person is called Jivanmukta. If a jivanmukta's functional mind also dies then we would not have great masters at all and realisation would be a dangerous state which kills a person. 😳.

Merely absorption of mind is not the goal. Its only a means and a relief. The goal and cure is to destroy ignorance and psychological divisions.

@Nityamukta and Sanjit: mind does not die with death of the body. Subtle body consists of 5 senses of knowledge, 5 senses of action, 5 pranas, mind, intellect, memory n ego. All these depart from the gross body at death. Mind continues in subtler form till the next gross body is attained by karma.
If mind died with the death of the body, we would not have continuity of life n laws of action n results will be redundant. We also cant explain why so much variety in creation.

@Krishna- non-ignorant individual is jivanmukta. Ignorant is called Jeeva.
Mano nasha is realisation. Final state. Nothing more to achieve after that.
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KG: Ok

GP: Beautiful swamiji! Thank you
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KG: Swamiji the verse says,
Mano laya using restrain of Prana and Nasha using mind. So the restraint of Prana doesnt lead to the permanent state. Like u said temp relief. Is it then worthwhile to engage in it (Mano Laya). Is it just to show one the ecstasy

I mean glimpse the no mind like state....?

Su: Thank you so much Swamiji!!

SS: No its not to give a glimpse but to prepare the mind for the glimpse. The next verse answers this question.

Verse 14: This mind that gets absorbed by the restrain of the Pranas, gets destroyed by contemplation on that One (Reality)

Prana-bandhanaat leena-maanasam.
Eka-chintanaat naashametyadaha.
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KG: Swamiji, this means the Contemplation on SELF will be fruitful (culminating in Mano Nasha) only when the preparation of the Sadhak has reached the level where he/she is able to Mano Laya in the spirit conveyed in here. This is Hatha Yoga way.

The converse may not be true. Karma and Bhakti yogins are not practicing control of Prana. Am I right?

SS: Karma and bhakti yogi's minds are absorbed in the ideal and in the Lord. Hence the process is same for all. Make the mind pure n calm. Then contemplate on Self.
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KG: Ok. Thank you Swamiji!

SS: 8 steps of Ashtanga yoga or raja yoga are summarized by Ramana Maharshi in 2 steps.
Yama, niyama, asana, pranayama, pratyahara n dharana lead to mano laya.
Dhyan and samadhi lead to mano-nasha.

Yoga generally believes in only quietude of mind. Hence Ramana clarifies here that contemplation is very important. Else the mind which goes into samadhi will come back like the birds below the net.

MN: So Swamiji for a person who does only Raja Yoga or Ashtanga yoga is it possible for him also to reach the State of Realisation?

SS: Yes. If he contemplates on Self.

MN: So contemplation is the Key here...Just achieving quietude of mind will not serve the purpose...Thank you Swamiji for clarifying😊

SS: Yes

NB: Thanku Swamiji🙏

Upadesh Saar : Verse 13 (Day 1)

SS: Verse 13: The absorption of the mind(mano laya) and destruction of the mind(mano nasha) occurs by the restrain of the Prana and the mind respectively. The absorbed mind comes back but never indeed the dead mind.

Laya-vinaashane ubhaya rodhane.
Laya gatam punar bhavati no mrtam.

What is the difference between mano laya and mano nasha? What does destruction of the mind mean?

Su: From Guruji's commentary I understand that mind has two aspects.. sensing the sense objects around us, perceiving them and making sense of them and registering it in our memory. Then we come to enjoy and depend on them eventually leading us to believe that happiness lies these objects.  We need to understand happiness lies in us (subject ) is not the nature  of the object. 
When we try to control the mind thru pranas the mind is absorbed hence does not perceive the objects... but if the control goes it will return again.  It's temporary. But when we control the mind directly with the understanding of the true nature of objects and man then that clingling-to-objects nature of mind gets destroyed. This destruction is permanent. Then the mind does not come back to cling to the outside world for happiness.

So here destruction is a positive concept. Therefore restraint thru pranas is like treatment of symptoms and destruction of mind is curing the disease.
So does that mean pranayama can be used as a beginners step...

GP: Good one sunitha
Swamiji, don't we experience mano-laya every day in deep sleep?

NB: True dat sunithaji... it  mentions dat wen prana is controled, d mind is also in control n dsnt wander.but d ignorance stil remains.so destruction of d mind is destruction of d ignorance.so for one's growth i think first one must go for restraining d mind thru pranayam n second d removal of ignorance thru knowledge.

GP: Question: if the mind becomes dead, what remains? As long as we are 'alive' won't traces of the mind remain?

NB: But GP bhaiya, manolaya means absorbed mind na? so wat wil d mind b absorbed in deep sleep?
Dis is as per ur question asked GP bhaiya

Su: GP from what I understood from the commentary ... dead mind does not mean the thoughts stop.  That goes on.  But the ignorance based on which the mind function ends..  please correct me Swamiji

SR: I think its parallelism...mano laya state is temporary control of mind thru pranas like sleeping man is temporary in sleep nd can wake up nd resume his functions

Whereas mano nasha is permanent removal of ignorance aftr wich it nevr come backs like dead man never wakes up

GP: But sunitha, if thoughts remain, then the mind is still present. The statement says 'mano nasha' and not 'avidya nasha'. And hence my question.

So sanjit, does the mind also die when the person is dead?

SR: As per my understanding...when person dies...mind does not get vital energy frm pranas nor does it get senses to express...so it disconnects nd not in use...temporarily dead...but can b used when again connected with pranas nd senses

NE: So mind travels thru different births like the soul?

NB: I think mind dies in a dead man bcoz its nothing but flow of thoughts...' dead man doesnt think'

But wen it gets a new body bcoz of d vasanas den d mind xpreses again

Su: GP even I am not to clear in that. When I read this I had the same question as yours.  If mind is the flow of thoughts, how can there be a mind without thoughts. 

But then I thought what he meant was that the subtle body remains... but the ego entity with individual likes and dislikes ends...

Not sure I made sense
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KG: My understanding :
Mano Laya - Absorbed using tool - Single pointed mind. Rebounces back when tool is withdrawn.
Mano Nasha - Mind in full control of the person(soul - not sure what an non-ignorant person is called). Mind/thoughts not driven by sense perception / memory / expectations / etc. Can choose what thoughts 2 think. Mind used as a tool to function pranas, body, etc.
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RP: I think we must go back to the   Vasanas->desires->thoughts->action->vasanas cycle. When we distract our minds and keep them focused using pranayama then this cycle is temporarily suspended but will resume again. But if mind understands that there is no real happiness in the objects and experiences that happiness is in the subject  then the link is broken permanently. That does not mean no thoughts but no thoughts born of this chain.

Like the dialog in the movies - "samjho aaj se tumhara yeh dost mar chuka hai". Meaning something internally happened and no thoughts of friendship will sprout again but doesn't mean he doesn't think at all. Better example - Arjun getting thoughts of "oh they are my Guru and grandfather and relatives "etc before the war. After listening to the Gita these thoughts born of attachment are "dead" but Arjun is not dead. Of course both examples have their limitations.

Su: Ok then when they say with pranayama the mind  becomes absorbed hence no perception hence no agitation etc.  But the mind has become absorbed now and no perception is happening now.  What about earlier impressions.  In the Vasanas cycle... can Vasanas be suppressed so that they don't express bcz mind is absorbed

SS: Good churning happening. Keep it going
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RP: Sunita - I think we can try explain this using the same Arjun example. Krishna could have tried to tell Arjun about Draupadi incidence etc and that could have temporarily psyched Arjun to forget his attachments and get ready for a fight. but when he would come face to face with his teacher then again he will not be able raise his bow.  But when his mind is truly "absorbed" in the knowledge these attachments don't raise again at all. What happened to the attachments - well the guy who used to be influenced by these are gone. Same with Vasanas in our discussions.

Su: So you are saying that Vasanas become dormant bcz the individual does not identify with it anymore ?
Can that happen?
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RP: In fact (I have read in some version)  Arjun tells Draupadi at one point during the war that this war is not about you and the humiliation you were subjected to but it is about Dharma!!! Now that coming from him who all the time prepared for war remembering that incident and other similar injustice done - it is really something. speaks of the transformation and not some hypnosis or psyched up situation. Back to our Laya and nasha discussion.

Su: If draupadi actually thought the whole war was for her ...imagine being told you never figured.. lol 😅
Sorry for digressing.. back to discussion
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RP: Not sure about dormant - if it is dormant then it can sprout again. Like take a seed and put it in a fridge - it won't sprout. Put it in a nice soil it will sprout again. This is Laya situation. Now roast the seed and put it in the garden - it won't sprout ever. Nasha situation.

Su: Nice example
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RP: Yea!
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KG: Gr8 example!
So shouldn't be Mano Nasha correspond to self-realization or is it still not gone above Dharma, so still a stepping stone. My assumption is Arjuna stood 4 Dharma after Geeta bodh but was still not a realized master.
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RP: I think we should just take them as example of understanding Laya and nasha. In Arjun's case what was destroyed vs what was in Laya state is specific to that example. Obviously upadesa Saar discussion is higher.

‎KG: Ok

Upadesh Saar : Verse 12 (Day 2)

‎RP: On the 12th verse Swamiji - it appears the power to know and power to act come from the same source and are linked like 2 branches. So by controlling the action (breath) we try to pull the mind. Take help from gross to get to the subtle! Almost similar thought in japa - start with loud chanting and go quieter.     Several ways to get to the mind - seems to be central and essential in our journey.

GP: Makes sense ram. But why does it say that the 'mind reflects consciousness'?

SS: Very well said Ramkumarji. Mind or subtlebody alone has the capacity to express life as consciousness. Inert things are different from sentient because they dont have a mind.

‎RP: Thank you Swamiji. To GP's qn - mind reflecting consciousness. That's probably why we are so interested in the mind! Still mind is nothing but consciousness are things we have read. Loud japa to silent japa to just silence - I think the key is here - mind it!
So if you can't get to the mind directly - get to it via its gross relatives. Inspector Shankar tumhari maa mere kabze mein hain type!

SS: Mind is subtler than prana and can desire, feel, perceive etc and gain knowledge. But Prana is necessary to energise the body and to act. Mind cannot energise the body in absence of Prana. Hence mind and body are linked together by Prana. So controlling prana helps to control body and mind.
Prana is not mere breath. It is all 5 Pranas. But when we say Prana-vikshana or observe the prana then it mainly means breath-observation.

GP: So then Swamiji, if Prana enlivens and energises the body, isn't it more important than the mind? Mind cannot enliven the body. In fact without the prana-shakti the mind cannot find expression. Then how are they equated?
But at the same time, I understand when you say that the mind can gain knowledge, can desire, feel, perceive, etc.
But is the Prana dependant on the mind? What is the dependency?
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RP: I don't know true answer, but we have observed that sometimes some one is very old or sick (pranas are not v bright) but mind is still very alert!
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KG: Mind as in subtle body remains irrespective of jiva's birth. Prana along with gross body is born and worn out at death. So mind is independent of Prana, but using Prana and body it can express aloud.

SS: Prana is vital energy. Mind is subtle energy. Both derive their power from maya which inturn derives it from Consciousness. So both are dependent on Consciousness. Between both, mind is subtler because though mind cannot energise the body by itself, it guides the pranas to energise. Without mind pranas will not know what to do n how to do.

@Krishna: pranas are also part of subtle body. At birth only gross body is born. Vasanas, Mind, intellect, 5 Pranas and 10 senses get associated with the body at birth and disassociated at death.
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KG: Thx Swamiji for the correction. Need to study the prakarana granthas again.

SS: Tattvabodh.

GP: Thanks Swamiji. Now it is crystal clear.
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RP: Swamiji question - can we really say pranas can't function without the mind? Eg deep sleep state - pranas are working but mind is inactive. Probably runs on auto pilot? But it is also observed that mind can make the pranas work faster for eg when it senses danger or is angry. But we know we can train ourselves to break the auto reflex. Like taking a deep breath or counting to 10 when we are angry. So it appears mind can and does influence directly but there is an element of independence by which we can reverse or resist the influence. And is probably this aspect that helps us in verse 12.

SS:
1. In Deepsleep there is a small part of the mind which remains functioning. Conscious n subconscious mind becomes dormant.
2. Prana is born out of rajasik aspect of 5 elements and mind from sattvik aspect of 5 elements. Hence mind is subtler than prana n controls prana.
3.Actually all functions continue of prana as long as prarabdha karma is there. When karma gets over then prana stops. So prana is not independent of mind or karma. If it was, then prana would decide our moods as well as our life span. But we see that moods n mind affects prana more often n when we are not able to control mind then we may use prana for indirect control. (Tumhari maa mere kabze me hain types 😜)
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RP: Understood Swamiji! All coming together now. Thank you very much. This must be like surprise viva for you every day with people shooting qns. Hats-off.

SS: Good opportunity to reflect. 😄

Su: Wow!!  I come back to group.. and too much to reflect on....

NP: Swamiji the mind itself directs the prana to take deep breaths etc to control the mind's agitation. So I'm thinking there is no indirect control, only direct control of the prana by the mind.
Because even if we want to calm the mind with breathing it is the mind itself which directs the prana

SS: Its true that mind directs but still the control is indirect because mind is regulating itself through Prana and not through thinking.

NP: But the final decision is by the mind
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RP: Nilima many parents think they make the final decision and not the kids. But you know how it works !

NP: Hahaha Ramkumar I said the above from an eg I heard long back in the discussion about diff betn the mind and intellect. The child is the mind and father intellect. In the shop the child cries for the toy, and the father gives in and buys it. The final decision to buy is the father's
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RP: Sometimes the mother gets her kids to say something to get the desired final decision from the father! Same way - part of your mind accepts and cooperates with breath control etc. for the greater benefit
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RP: Yea - same thing our messages crossed

NP: Hmm yeah.😀
Swamiji once Guruji had given an example that when we sleep and wake up. We say I slept well. The mind was asleep, so who knows that I slept well. Is it the atman ?

SS: So what if decision is by the mind? It loses its control n cant come back to control itself n takes some support like prana to control itself. So it is indirect only. Like if a person is drowning n cant save himself, he decides to hold on to a floating log. Now what saved him? If one says he decided to hold on to the log and so he saved himself its not correct. He saved himself indirectly through a log.

Go back to Basics neelima. Atma is non-doer and non-enjoyer.  Atma does not know about deep sleep. Basic part of the mind knows. Mind, intellect, memory and ego are 4 aspects of subtle body. Mind, intellect n ego become unmanifest in deep sleep. Memory records absence of everything

NP: Yes Swamiji thank you so much for the explanation. I kept at it because I was not sure of what I was understanding. And about the sleep what u explained to ram Kumar earlier about in deep sleep there is a small prt which remains functioning . I read that and hence asked that question. I knew I misunderstood. ☺️Thanks for the wonderful explanation 😀

Upadesh Saar : Verse 12 (Day 1)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
A searching intellect may come to feel that he is the mind. But his mind is also regulated, controlled and guided, by his intellect. So then,  can he be, in essence his intellect?
As we deeply ponder over, is it not a fact, that we are conscious of our own intellect and it's endless dance of ideas.........
Therefore,  the knower-of-the-intellect must be the essential factor in me!!
This Consciousness that illumines the thought and the emotions must be the ultimate me in my bosom.

Source:
Book - Vakya Vritti
Chapter - introduction
Page - 6

SS: What is the logic or reason behind the fact that controlling the breath controls the mind?
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RK: Slow breathing .. Less thoughts ..

Su: Iam not aware... have been wanting to know what could be the physiological explanation.

GP: There clearly is a correlation between our breathing and the state of our mind.
When we are agitated, our breathing becomes faster. And there are times we unconsciously take a long deep breath to slow down our breathing, to steel ourselves (mentally prepare ourselves) before we face some difficult challenge.
Another example is the deep, rhythmic breathing when we are asleep (and our minds are inactive).

Su: Could be that breathing rate controls the heart rate.. hence the  cardiac system and the peripheral nervous system kind of settles to become calm which regulates mood ... and mood is known to control the frequency and content of thoughts generated by the brain.

GP: And maybe it also works vice-versa?
That if I control my thoughts through japa/ prayer/ meditation, my physiological functions also get calmer/ regulated?

Su: Yes it works both ways definitely

SS: Yes its true. There is a deeper spiritual reason too. Think!

VS: Agree to the heart and agitation reduction points. I have a feeling breath concentration also helps reducing the speed of breathing. It helps bring in good thoughts and flush out bad thoughts that cause agitation maybe because the inhaled air also reaches the Brain. It helps clear off any thoughts in the mind like a fan. Thus helps us concentrate on the silence.

Su: Is it that when Iam controlling my breathing,  Iam paying attention to my breath.  Hence Attn capacity increases and slowly I learn to witness my breath without distractions.... which gradually leads to single pointed focus.

VN: I think the same point as Sunita

VS: But why breath specifically

Su: Because I think it is seen that when focussing on breath the moment u get distracted the breath control stops and it is easy to detect the distraction... am I making sense... not sure if I conveyed it properly

NG: Breath may be significant because it represents the prana shakti - life force in us and observing the same / going to the source of it is going closer to understanding "who am I"?

NP: Swamiji breath belongs to which kosha?
Maybe the breath is subtler than the mind, so it controls the mind?

SS: Breath can't be subtler than the mind

NP: Was just shooting in the dark Swamiji

AV: We breathe all the time but not consciously. Just like thoughts running through our mind. So when we focus on one ....we also learn to focus on the other.

SS: Ramana Maharshi gives the spiritual reason in verse 12:

Mind can reflect consciousness and pranas have power of action. They are two branches of the same tree i.e Maya Shakti of the Lord. (Pulling one branch pulls the other also).

Verse 12:
chitta-vaayavah chit-kriyaa yutaah
Shaakhayordvayee shakti mulakaah.
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RP: Swamiji is this referring to Kriya shakti and Icha shakti? Kriya of the pranas and Icha of the mind? Understand Icha in this case does not translate to desire.

SS: This is referring to maya shakti in general. If we speak about iccha kriya n jnana shakti then we can say mind has icha n jnana shakti. Prana has kriya shakti.

Su: Swamiji right now Iam lost... unable to understand. Will go home and read Guruji's commentary and get back.

SS: K

Upadesh Saar : Verse 11 (Day 2)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
The manifest (birth) is your place of work, and the unmanifest (death) is your home. Are you ever scared to go back home?

Source:
Book: Tapovan Prasad
Issue: December 2005
Page: 43

MN: Beautiful👌

SS: The analogy of the birds caught in the net is to signify that as long as we focus/control the Prana, mind remains controlled like the birds cant fly as long as they are in the net. As soon as the net is lifted, the birds fly again. Same way, the mind again starts its wandering as soon as the control on Prana is dropped
Ramana Maharshi indicates here that mere pranayama and quietude of mind is only a means. By itself it cannot lead to the goal of mind abiding in the heart(Self).
Control of Prana is Pranayama. Breath observation is called Prana-Vikshana, where one merely focuses on the inhalation ad exhalation as it is happening. One does not control it or breathe in a specific ratio.

Practice of the week: Spend 5minutes in the morning and 5 minutes in the evening, merely observing the breath. If mind wanders bring it back to breath observation. This will make the mind and intellect sharp, subtle and single-pointed.

GP: Thanks swamiji

Upadesh Saar : Verse 11 (Day 1)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
A complete and fully rewarding "philosophy of life" must contain three gospels - "The Gospel Of Krishna", "The Gospel Of Laughter" and the "The Gospel Of Work".
Let us live fully obeying these three Gospels in our day-to-day life. Certainly then we will come to enjoy what is the best that is possible in this world.
"The Gospel Of Krishna" will bring us worldly peace and spiritual unfoldment.
"The Gospel Of Laughter" shall bring us relaxation, health and rewarding glory.
"The Gospel Of Work" shall make us partners with Him in His great-grand-plan for the world.
These three alone can bring us in themselves, enduring achievements in life. We must taste this; the supreme privilege and prerogative of our higher evolution as man..... We Must.

Source:
Book - Chinmaya Lahiri
Topic - Laugh Away
Page - 64

SS: Verse 11: By the restrain of the pranas the mind becomes absorbed. This is a means of checking the mind like the birds trapped in the net.

Vaayu-rodhanaat leeyate manah.
Jaala-pakshivat rodha-saadhanam.

Ramana maharshi starts the raja yoga description now. Why does he give the analogy of birds trapped in the net?

JV: I understand the part of feeling trapped. Also full focus on the self. However can't link it beyond this. It would definitely make you alert.
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KG: The moment the trap is removed, the birds fly of in the directions possible. Mind too, has a natural tendency to keep chewing on objects. So the means here looks like the way to make sure Mind has limited movement or moment in the direction required.
Also the Hunter fools the birds into the trap. Can we fool our OWN MIND into a trap :) thinking...

RP: Our minds tend to fly freely and usually to the past or future. Trapping example given here and the net used is prana or breathing (vayuu) suggests absorbing the mind in the present. Like the birds trapped in the net are grounded but at the same time alive and alert too.

GP: Good one ram!
The mind left unrestrained tends to fly free in multiple directions with no focus.
We have learned that there is a direct correlation between our prana (breathing) and the state of the mind.
Breath control can keep the mind grounded and focused and absorbed in the subject. So the prana acts like a net over the mind and keeps it from flying in all directions.

Su: Iam sure there is a definite science behind regulation of breath and mind management. Since it is difficult to bring the mind into single pointed focus just like that.... this method is the tool used.
The bird analogy as others have said is symbolic of how the mind hops from one preoccupation to another when left free. It goes in the direction it wants. But when restrained with the net of pranayama it can be kept in one place.

NP: Through the net the birds can see the world but it's experience is restricted. ??

‎KG: The Hunter(Intellect) becomes the Master of the birds(Mind). The birds have no choice but to be play in the restricted environment and fly off at any mistake from the Hunter (Demands Smartness so the Mind doesn't outwit).
Not sure if the verse conveys bringing the mind to Present. Pranayama as a tool to absorb the mind - I thought this means still the mind - thoughtlessness. Is being in the Present devoid of thoughts? Not clear to me.

Su: I think over here it means not allowing the mind to wander in the different fields that is does. So restrict the movement of the mind to experience that state...

Upadesh Saar : Verse 10 (Day 2)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
At each moment man has limited freedom to follow either the path of good or the path of pleasant.  Certainly,  man has not got a complete and unlimited freedom over the external circumstances but he has been given this limited freedom to be good or to be vicious in his moment to moment contact with the external world.  This limited liberty is the real character of freedom for the man,  by a wise use of which he can soar into the greater realms of perfection and become himself the God.

GP: Krishna, I also think that is how it is or is being indicated.
That the goal of all these paths is the same - awareness and then abidance in our true nature, our true Self.

This declaration also should give us all of us hope and inspiration. Because it says that whichever path we choose, depending on our personality and inclinations, we do not have to wonder if we're on the right path. We do not have to fret and wonder which path is better or superior or inferior.

What is important is to remember that whichever path we choose, the final destination is this state of abidance.

Now the question is : who has ascertained this? (it is said here that 'it has been ascertained')

Su: Agreed.... but this declaration can also give rise to licentiousness.  I guess having the right knowledge of the path and some structure to it is important.  Too much flexibility is also dangerous.

All paths lead to the same goal,  but how will I know it's right for me.  Is there a thing like some paths are more conducive for certain personalities and detrimental for some.  Is there some guidelines or is it that one starts walking along the path as per ones inclination and along the way experience teaches..... if the Guru is there to guide then will he stop some student from pursuing a path that is not conducive...
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KG: On who has ascertained - was assuming realized Masters using reasoning methodologies (Nyaya - logic)?

I too share Sunita's questions on which is the psychology test to be taken to ascertain THE PATH for this life. If there is no standard test, we have to rely on others advice or experiment each one.
I feel, each of paths followed require a very purist attitude labelling him a Bhakta or Karmi or Gyani etc. But can that be possible for initiates like us. Do we perfectly fall in a category. Don't we luv a bit of all paths.

SS: This verse is in the middle because it throws light on 2 yogas covered and 2 yet to be covered and tells us that all are for the same purpose. It is called dehli-deepa-nyaaya in sanskrit. A lamp kept at the threshold of a room will illumine outside and inside both.

Each one has to know by themselves whether they are predominantly action oriented or emotion oriented or knowledge oriented and choose the path accordingly. We all need a mix of all 3 because all have BMI but one path chosen consciously helps to evolve faster.

Another aspect is whichever path is chosen, the other two are already there in it. Think over it. So you buy 1 and get 2 free. 😄

JV: Yes totally agree. It is buy 1 get 2 free. Interesting. Krishna would totally appreciate this. What say?
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KG: 😄
Indirectly, ghooma ghoomake sab kuch karvarahe hai 😕

Swamiji, are these the Only fundamental paths (4 in all) ?

SS: Yes in vedanta there are only these 4 paths

NP: I think one gravitates to the path according to ones vasanas. We will choose only that path. Gurudev too has not restricted the activities of the mission to any one path. So it is more like one huge umbrella where each one can take shelter.
Also I feel sometimes we do deviate from our chosen path according to time and circumstances, and our mental state.
As long as one is walking the path and moving forward there will be growth.
Sorry I've been typing in bits and pieces.
 

Upadesh Saar : Verse 10 (Day 1)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
SAVE me help me please. As the slave of my passions, and a non-believer, all these years I know, I have no right to seek Thy help now. True,  I have no faith to meet Thee. I have nothing to offer except my own tears,  the fatigue of my indulgences, the canker of my selfishness, the sweat of my passions and the cords of my attachments. In fact, I don't really deserve to be saved,  yet,  Lord, Iam tired, trashed out completely, exhausted thoroughly - helplessly, wholly..... I surrender myself to Thee and Thy Grace.
Such a feeling of total surrender,  generated in this mental mood,  is called 'devotion' - true devotion of the heart.

GP: Ram, beautiful references to the bhajans

NP: Superb explanation Ram!

SS: Verse 10: it has been ascertained that the goal of the Yoga of action, devotion, ashtanga yoga and yoga of knowledge is the abidance of the mind in the heart(One's own Nature).

Hrt-sthale manah svasthataa kriya.
Bhakti-yoga-bodhaascha nischitam.
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KG: Doubt, why is this verse in the middle? We are yet to cover Astanga and Gyana yoga in the text.

Referring to Swamiji's reply to my question on Karma Yoga, indeed Bhakti and Karma are merging their paths in this goal.
By reference of all the Four paths, is more to be inferred...

Read Guruji's explanation - "goal of all spiritual practices is this abidance in SELF...its validated by Masters."

So indicating that the next set of Yogas are also culminating at same goal.

I see a need for a synthetic (mix) of all these paths. One path may predominate but I feel at this stage all may be required in some dose. Is that fine? Or a longer or shorter route as compared 2 purists?

Upadesh Saar : Verse 9 (Day 3)

‎RP: On the verse on supreme devotion - couple of related lines from popular bhajans-

1. Kabirdas - Prem gali ati sankri, tamein dou na samai. Jab mein tha tab Hari nahin, ab Hari hai mein nahin.
Hari and I (ego) can't co-exist. When completely identified with Hari - I disappear - the state of supreme devotion.

2. Meerabai. From the Famous bhajan - ghoongat ke pat khol tohe piya milenge
Soone mandir diya jalaake, aasan se mat dol re, ghoongat ke pat khol re , tohe piya milenge.
Talks of stillness (contemplation) and the ghoongat refers to thoughts ( of duality).
In the stillness of contemplation remove thoughts of duality - you will be united with The Lord. (Popular reference to ghoongat in suhag raat concept. As long as ghoongat exists no milan happens.)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
Ruthless discrimination is the secret of success.

However hungry you are, you will not eat a dead man, because your discrimination tells you of the abominable nature of the act. No lusty person,  even if he is of Ravana type, will think of embracing a dead queen. A man dying of thirst will not dare to drink some molten iron.
In all these cases our average discrimination tells us that the cure is more dangerous than the disease.

Similarly in our acute awareness, if we have brought, as a logical conclusion, the firm conviction that this world of objects - including our children, wealth,  possessions, our own body, mind and intellect - are all finite that brilliantly dance around us for a certain period of time and will certainly disappear without any notice or warning....

If this realization has come to our personal understanding,  certainly we shall get love and affection, and also learn to enjoy everything around us, but at the same time there would be a constant warning from somewhere deep in ourselves that nothing is permanent and that we should not barter away our existence depending entirely upon the finite bubbles of life.
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KG: Super examples Ramkumarji.
 

Upadesh Saar : Verse 9 (Day 2)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
We are a three-faceted equipment.  Where the body is at work, the mind of the worker should stand receptive and responsive, and his intellect alert and discriminative,  should assume full command of the body and the mind.  Such three-fold concentration is referred to as single pointedness and is indeed very hard to attain. Much sincere,  regular practice is needed - of polishing and integrating the personality.

JV: When we manifest devotion for a form, knowing very well that the power behind that form is all pervading, you starts seeing the supreme power in every activity of universe. To such an extent that you feel the presence of the  entity in everything and finally only the that presence no more of I is felt.
The form is basically a reference point. A trigger.

Su: Ok,  Iam unable to  intellectually grasp the concept of devotion with non duality.  If I identify with something how can I be devoted to it after that.

SS: Devotion with non-duality means devotion in its highest form is non-duality. Devotee and Lord merge. Devotion alone remains.

Like sleeper and sleeping cease and sleep alone remains

Su: Yes now I got it... thanks Swamiji.

JV: Absolutely.
 

Upadesh Saar : Verse 9 (Day 1)

SS: Verse 9: by the strength of the though(soham) firm abidance in the Existence principle is gained which is free from all thought modifications. This is supreme devotion.

Bhaava-shunya-sat-bhaava-susthitih.
Bhaavanaa-balaat bhaktiruttamaa.

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
The body is what it is because of its Prarabdha. Because of your Vasanas you have taken this body. Today the body moves, every minute, expressing its powerful Vasanas. The body will drop off once the Vasanas are exhausted. Till then it will continue to exist, food or no food. It will be looked after by its own Prarabdha.
If my body is not getting food, I become anxious for it. However, when this body was born, it was born without consulting me. The mighty Law by which it was born will keep it going for the purpose for which it was born, if it falls off, never mind, let it go.
Understanding this well, strengthen your mind and protect it from all such agitations.

MN: How can body have its Prarabdha?
Our actions determines our Prarabdha...Am I correct?

NB: I guess it means actions done by the body

JV: Nope body is inert and in capable of acting on its own.

MN: Yes so what does that statement means

NB: Mmm actions done by the jiva who is the BMI? ??

SS: Pl read the quote again. Gurudev has explained it in the quote itself clearly

MN: 🙏

SS: To exhaust certain vasanas which are due to past karma, we take bodies. Till those vas anas n karmas are there body will be there. Then it drops off. The vasanas n karmas which are ready to give results are called prarabdha. To exhaust it, a body is required. Hence Gurudev used the expression prarabdha of the body. Karmas are done by jeeva and phala also experienced by jeeva. Body is required for this.

NB: When we contemplate on ' i am consciousness' continuously then the I drops and ' am consciousnes ' remains which is the existance principal and leads to non-duality. This is purest form of bhakti.
Am not very sure if my interpretation is right.so i didn't say Swamiji

‎KG: This is like the example you gave Swamiji of someone calling a boy named "Krishna".
Karma yoga that we discussed earlier resulted only in Chitta Shuddhi (purity of mind), but Bhakti yoga has culminated in the merger of the self in HIM.

MN: Swamiji I had a basic question does Prarabhdha and destiny mean the same or are they different...when we say ' It's my Prarabhdha' it means destiny..right?

Su: Sorry Swamiji I was caught up in few urgent things hence could not participate.  Will be able do to so from now on.  Apologise

VS: Swamiji... Regarding verse 9 does thought modification means various thoughts about The Lord his name, beauty, glories etc. So there are still various thoughts in the mind. Again in Nirguna contemplation there are thoughts logically analyzing or appreciating. That's the reason they are called interrupted contemplation. While in Soham there only one thought, no more analysis(bhava shunya) so lesser interruption. At this point there is total complete surrender, no more analysis to be done. This total and complete trust, faith or surrender is greatest Bhakti.
Because now the merger has happened.
Any comments...

SS: I will reply to everyone in the evening

VS: Swamiji evening...
Good evening

SS: Nityamukta: from bhakti with duality where one worships the Lord and feels one is different, one moves to the feeling of oneness and attempts union with the Lord through soham and ultimately comes to realise the state of oneness which is beyond all thoughts. This is the highest form of bhakti called paraa-bhakti.

Krishna: karma yoga also led to supreme realisation when it was said whole world is seen as HIS manifestation. Bhakti yoga also leads to the Supreme as described above

Mitesh: prarabdha is destiny - past karma.

Vinod, read the explanation given to nityamukta. Thats the meaning of verse 9

VS: Thank you Swamiji! Ok Swamiji and I'll confirm my understanding.

GP: Swamiji, without this clarity the verse can be confusing.
Because our normal understanding of devotion is that it is possible only in duality. But here, the devotion that is being referred to has no altar, no devotee and no act of devotion.

SS: Yes. This is the state of oneness where the Lord, devotee and devotion disappear. It is called sadhya-bhakti. The devotion with an altar is called aparaa bhakti or sadhana-bhakti.

One of the etymological meanings of bhakti is - bhanj aamardane, which means to break and destroy. Devotion destroys attachment on one hand and duality on the other. Hence in hindi we always say bhakt wo jo kabhi vibhakt na ho. Devotee is one who is never separate from the Lord

SR: Swamiji, when non duality disappears, then what happens to rituals and pooja, i guess there is no need anymore bcos one doesnot see the Lord as separate entity.

SS: There is no need but masters may do it to set example for others to do. Like Gurudev used to do japa and also establish temples etc

GP: That's the beauty of their large-heartedness
They have gone beyond all this and yet they will do this for us

VS: Yes

NB: Thank you Swamiji for.clarifying😊🙏

Upadesh Saar : Verse 8 (Day 3)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
If,  after all our efforts the Vasanas are not totally exhausted, then the balance that remains to trouble us is called "destiny".
Man can change his destiny not by wishing for it.. but by working for it.

SS: Verse 8 is speaking about bhakti because pooja and japa were described earlier and next stage is contemplation. What is contemplation in the context of bhakti?

VS: Hari Om Swamiji and everyone! Coming to verse 8,    I need to think about Lord Krishna as not the name and the form but Him as the omnipresent and the cause of everything in the world by the rule of negation.
Any comments...

AD: Contemplation with regards to bhakti Nirguna with form is one type of contemplating and saguna the formless which is ultimately we. Have to reach

VS: Yes I remember reading Saguna is interrupted and Nirguna is uninterrupted Contemplation
So does that mean focused imagination of the Lord's form is Contemplation? Does imagination of His Glories also fall under Contemplation?
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KG: I think in Bhakti - Reflection is about knowing and being convinced of the Glories of the form of Lord chosen. Contemplation may be more subtle.

SS: Thinking of the Lord as different from oneself and hence contemplation on His name, form, attributes, abode, leelas etc is contemplation with difference. Contemplating on oneness with Him through Soham or feeling oneness with HIM through surrender is contemplation without difference.  In both these, interruptions happen as per our purity of mind and devotion.
Contemplation on oneness with the Lord is indeed subtler than on His name, form etc
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KG: Arunaji, I think
Nirguna = Attributeless/Formless. Hope u meant the same.

VS: Yes
Swamiji... When it is Soham... Does it mean it's not Bhakti anymore.

SS: No. Love is complete only in union with the beloved.  Soham is the feeling of oneness with the Lord. Ramakrishna was worshipping mother kali and offering flowers to her and when his surrender was complete he realises oneness with her and started offering flowers on his own head

VS: So is it possible that mahatmas in dvaita also experience this oneness but don't intellectually accept it as Soham?

SS: I have no idea about it.

VS: Ok
From the above example of Sri Ramakrishna, Should one consciously contemplate on Soham... Or does one reach that feeling automatically.

SS: In bhakti marga it Will happen automatically when surrender happens completely.

VS: Thanks Swamiji

Upadesh Saar : Verse 8 (Day 2)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
India has always been the Guru of the world.  Our generation has been called upon now to lead and guide the world,  not in killing, not in destroying,  not in warfare but in learning and understanding how to face problems of the outer world.  For that the study of scriptures is absolutely necessary and we must also learn to practice it in our everyday life.

‎RP: Back to verse 8 - compared to contemplation with duality contemplation on oneness is better. I remember many shlokas where going beyond pairs of opposites are encouraged in daily living.  (sheet-ushna, sukha-dukha, maan-apmaan, labhalabhau jayajaou etc ). I am sure these are mentioned so we can get to the stage of practicing verse 8.

VS: Actually I seemed to understand that when Pooja, japa, nidhidhyasana are practiced regularly the pair of opposites are taken care of. Isn't it so? Because I start to
Understand the jada nature of it or I accept the situations as Yagnaprasad. Isn't it

 

Upadesh Saar : Verse 8 (Day 1)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
Live day to day. Watch the Tamaasha at home and in the world outside. Both inside and outside your house do your best ungrudgingly for the welfare of others.  But expect nothing from them. Change can come in others only by His grace,  never by our efforts for them to grow.

MN: Can someone explain the above thought for the day

VN: @Mitesh: there are two ways of increasing the value from a given fraction a/b. Either increase the value of 'a' or reduce the value of 'b'. Fractional rule, std 6th 😁
I think, the meaning is....When we try to increase the numerator, we will be adding on to more vasanas on our pile. Instead, when we entertain lesser desires, we are not creating new vasanas and thus the Happiness Quotient increases.

MN: So in effect what the Rishis are trying to say the ideal state is when you don't entertain desires you reach infinite happiness😊
Because the denominator would be zero right

VN: 👍
a/0 = Infinity. It is also said to be Indeterminate or 'Not defined' in some contexts. i think all would hold good in this situation.

MN: But from a pure mathematical point of view if you don't entertain any desires then you would not have any desires to fulfil...
So wouldn't that make it 0/0😬

VN: @mitesh: but there's already some desires we carry. So numerator is greater than 0.

MN: Yes you are right from our past births

SS: Verse 8: compared to contemplation with duality, contemplation on Oneness with the Divine through Soham is more purifying.
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GK: The verse directly points 2 Advaita philosophy. The end results of all the tools we discussed should culminate in contemplation on the Advaita principle. Here I had a doubt on what type of realization did the stalwarts like Madhavacharya(dwaita) or Ramanujacharya(vishista-advaita) or say proponents of kashmiri shivism.... gain. Didn't they reach Advaita (oneness) before they noted the thesis

Or did they just functioned on instructons from the Lord to bring in variety in school of thoughts for the benefit of variety of intellects

Will it be wrong 2 term just Shankara's philosophy as leading 2 ultimate freedom?

Sorry Swamiji 4 I diverted from the verse itself and got into comparison mode.

VS: Swamiji... A very powerful question... Will think and respond
And Krishna the comparison or difference is very thin silver line I feel... So it doesn't make anyone inferior.
At our level everyone is superior
Swamiji is it because advaita goes beyond BMI while we are stuck with a name and form (time n space) in dvaita
At our level we are following a mixture of dvaita and a dvaita
Swamiji I just realised I was talking about Nirguna or uninterrupted contemplation. Does this type of contemplation exist in dvaita too?

SS: Krishna, the concept of moksha is different in each path. Do more research on their principles, concept and means of moksha and you will know that their realisation is not same as advaita

Vinod: uninterrupted chanting of Lord's name exists in bhakti also
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GK: Thank you Swamiji! Will do some homework.

Upadesh Saar : Verse 7 (Day 2)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
You should not expect man to be grateful when you do everything good for their welfare. Else you will become very cynical about man, which is tragic for a spiritual sadhak. Do what is to be done as best as you know and march on to do more..... never look back, nor try to hear over your own shoulders.  Even those who do apparent and real harm to you is in himself seeking his own self-punishment.  Have pity for him,  please. He deserves your pity more than you deserve and need his goodness.  THINK!!

SS: What we are ready for and can attain by a little stretching is effortless for us. What we are not ready for appears tough and one cant sustain it. Verse 5 spoke about pooja. Verse 6 spoke about japa and verse 7 about contemplation. Many of us would like to contemplate and when we try we either sleep or mind wanders. So its better to try out the simpler options first, to cultivate purity and single pointedness. If mental japa can happen continuously and we experience joy of taking His name then it means we are ready for contemplation on the formless.

VS: Swamiji is there any directive on the speed of Japa.
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KG: I was thinking... whatever speed help achieve the goal of Japa. Going by the yardstick - Manas japa better than loud japa, slower the better. But the speed should absorb the seeker. To start with some pace may help to keep the mind focussed.

Upadesh Saar : Verse 7 (Day 1)

SS: Verse 7: like the smooth flow of ghee and a river at its source, single pointed contemplation is better than interrupted contemplation.

Aajya-dhaaraya srotasaa samam.
Sarala-chintanam viralatah param.

What is the significance of the two analogies used by Ramana Maharshi?

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
"Plan out your work" and then never neglect to "work out your plan". The former without the latter is sheer waste; and the later without the former is mere unproductive confusion.  Where these two are followed sincerely, success will shine out, in spite of all piled up difficulties enroute.

Su: Ghee has a smooth uninterrupted flow,  without any break in between. That is how contemplation should be. Our mind should be continuously flowing towards the object of our contemplation without getting distracted by other thoughts and desires in between. 
That is tough and needs years of preparation according to me.

About the river,  am a little confused. River breaks in between when there are obstacles,  meaning it's not as smooth as ghee.  It does not break away but it's not as smooth.  But a river no matter what the obstacles are continually flows and reaches the destination - the ocean.

Ok,  here it says at its source. So there are no obstacles at the source of the river,  soo....

NP: Is it about one gets to the stage of ghee. You have to ferment milk to curd, then churn it to get butter then heat the butter to get ghee!
So like that we have to ferment our mind with the right knowledge and thinking, then churn it with mananam and heat it with tapa to get smooth flow of contemplation

Su: I guess that's the preparation needed to reach the ghee state.

NP: River at its source is clean and pure. So probably when our mind is already very pure it is easier to contemplate
Like Ramana Maharishi

SR: Nicely said Neelima!

SS: Well said sunitha and neelima. Ghee is symbolic of continuous flow and single pointed contemplation. River is pure at the source.  Purity and single pointedness both are necessary for contemplation.

How do we know if our mind is pure or not?

NB: I think that when one sits for contempletion, if the mind has not gone through its stages of growth then the mind wanders to thoughts. That's interrupted contemplation. But when the mind is trained through japa, knowledge then the mind contemplates well.

Without practice we might get uniterrupted contemplation at the start compared to the ghee or flow of river but this is not good in the long run. It's like directly jumping to 10th standard as it might be detrimental to our progres further.

Flow of river, ghee because it runs without effort
It makes great sense everyone...thank you

NP: M&s
We will know when our mind is calm, all the time devoid of agitations. This will happen only when we don't have the feeling of other. Meaning when we see the world as HIS manifestation. All our problems arise because of the difference we feel.

SS: For that vision of oneness purity is required. So it seems to be vicious circle then.

NB: Yes Swamiji.. and to me seems like somethin which is not that easy to acheive

NP: So when we don't have that vision of oneness, we know that our mind is not pure. We will have to work on it.
Swamiji, if I surrender completely to The Lord, do my japa, and study regularly, will this oneness happen as a byproduct?

SS: Oneness cannot happen as a byproduct of sadhana. Sadhana can purify the mind and a pure mind sees that oneness was always there and That alone is.

NP: Thank you Swamiji. 😀
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RP: Pure mind characteristics - more peaceful , less attachment and more vairagya, less likes & dislikes, less of kaam krodha moha etc. more alert, more concentrated etc can be said.
Simple yardstick can be calm and alert mind.

SS: 👍

VS: Nice analogy of Ghee and source of river. Nice explanation of Ghee by Neelima. Purest form of mind. Easily burnt and disappears. Maybe that's the reason why it is used as a saamagri. Our mind also should be burnt and reach such a state that it merges with The Lord.
This is one way to train the mind
Another way is to reach the source of the mind where it is   Purest like the source of the river
What is a calm mind... Thoughtless mind.
I feel pure and calm mind are same

DB: Vision of oneness comes when there is no fear; fear comes because of a sense of individuality & this sense of individuality expresses itself as likesm/dislikes,  love/hate, I, mine, yours- absence of these pairs of opposites is a pure mind

Upadesh Saar : Verse 6 (Day 1)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
A temple of God is not so glorious as the house of His devotees; for in the latter He lives while in the former He only waits!!

VN: Hari Om! Couldnt participate in the discussions. Really beautiful ones...giving me more clarity and a lot of reminders. Thank you Swamiji and everyone.

SB: 🙏🙏🙏 quietly watching and learning. Thank you all.

SS: Verse 6: to chant or sing (glories of the Lord) is good. Superior to that is loud japa. Superior to loud japa is soft japa. Superior to soft japa is japa done by the mind. Effortless japa(japa-dhyanam) is the subtlest.

Uttama-stavaad uccha-mandatah.
Chittajam japa-dhyaanam uttamam.

This verse gives us the order of subtlety in practice of Japa. Ramana Maharshi covers pooja, japa and chintanam one after another after mentioning it in verse 4.  In verse 5 he spoke about pooja. Now he mentions about japa.

Uttama-stava: It is said that chanting vedic mantras and hymns is superior and subtler to singing non-vedic hymns, stuties and stotrams. Why?

VN: Is it because stuties and stotrams are for a form of the Lord and Vedic Mantras are on the formless?

SS: Vedic hymns like rudram, narayana suktam, ganapati atharva are for form too. Also there are enuf stotrams for formless which are non-vedic. Eg nirvana shatkam

VN: Oh ok

VS: Swamiji is it because the Vedic hymns are not composed but are always present in the cosmos and heard by great Rishis.
So whenever they are chanted they move around like sound waves and have specific effects.

MN: Yeah I agree to an extent
I mean it is said Gayatri Mantra was revealed to Sage Yagnavalkya when he was meditating
Does anyone know any other Vedic hymns that are revelations and not composed by a particular author?

VS: So far as I know all Vedas fall under this and are therefore called Shruthis...

SS: Bingo vinod. 👍. Vedic mantras are revelations to the Rishis. They are not composed by humans. They are also science of sound vibrations and mantras chanted in intonations produce specific vibrations. Pranayama also happens automatically while chanting these mantras. Eg. If you chsnt ganapati atharvashirsha, the form of ganesha appears Automatically. Experiments have proved it. 
Shlokas and stutis are composed by rishis and are not science of sound though they also produce some vibrations.
What is important is devotion in chanting or singing overrides everything.

MN: Wow I didn't know all of this...Thank you so much Swamiji for sharing this😇

VS: So are they superior because they give faster results... or they connect faster... Swamiji?
So is Gayatri Mantra superior? But we find it so comfortable imagining a Lord by chanting a simpler Japa mantra. Why is it so?

SS: Superior only due to it being a revelation and science of sound. Yes gayatri mantra is the second most powerful mantra after om. Its the essence of vedic knowledge. Japa also uses vedic mantras or puranic mantras and is powerful method.

VS: Thanks Swamiji

Upadesh Saar : Verse 5 (Day 2)

VS: Swamiji I was starving for this class. Thanks. Regarding the topic of discussion, in addition to what Akka n Mitesh said...
When challenges go beyond control the prasada  buddhi goes for a toss.

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
At this moment we all, as members of society, are fully engaged in the standard way of doing things, the standard methods everywhere adopted by others according to the fashion of the times - this is termed here as loka-anu-vartanam. Since we live as we are living, we are what we are. If you want to lift your life into a greater ambit, you have to change your ways of living. If you want to gain hold on the spiritual path...... Change.
Without changing the old values of life and ways of life, a new dimension of life and living cannot be achieved.
You have to give up imitating the false values of others around you, meaning, stop living blindly a stamped blue-print of life, supplied by the fashions of the times or by sensuous men who seek their fulfillment in sense-indulgences. Just living the routine life of unintelligent imitation of others in society is the surest way to a life of sensuality.
For spiritual purpose, a most intelligently re-planned way of life is to be followed. If you want to take up sincere sadhana, you have to redirect your life's flow.
Hence the first thing to be renounced is the 'blind following of the patterns of the time'- loka-anu-vartanam

VK: Hi is there any where I can catch up on all the discussions since start my what's app had crashed and hence was unable to participate

MN: Hari Om Vivek bhaiyya! You can catch all the earlier discussion here
For those who have just joined, you can visit the following blog to catch up e-satsang.blogspot.com
 vedercise.blogspot.com

SR: Swamiji, what about an atheist who does not believe in Lord, thus will not view the world as HIS manifestation, yet want to do selfless actions, wants to inculcate a perfect attitude...is worshipping Lord only option to bring in such an attitude. - Sanjit

MN: I think even an atheist can do selfless service by dedicating all his actions to something higher- for example Nation or organisation
Our jawans who man our borders are the best examples of selflessness- putting nation above all Else🙏

SS: What is the goal of life as per atheist's thinking? That will determine what means should the atheist follow. Nothing prevents the atheist from serving selflessly. The verse is meant for those who want to dissolve the ego and realise oneness with the Divine which is infinite. Except the Infinite Lord whomever or whatever i serve, there will be limitations and duality.

An atheist is actually not a non-believer of God or Truth but a non-believer of prevalent concepts and depictions of God which dont appeal to his/her mind.

AM: Hari om,
Please register for Mumbais first CHYK and Sethukaari camp with Swamiji.
Everyone in this group is invited.
You can get your kids tok as we have a special sessions for them as well. 😊

MN: Why is then that the conventional definition of atheist defines it simply as non-believer in GOD
I agree with your definition Swamiji and I feel an atheist is someone who needs validation and logic to transform from a non-believer to believer

SS: People get attached to their ideas and create divisions like believer and non-believer. Happens in everything. supporters and opposition.
Especially about God because it is intangible and beyond all concepts.

MN: True🙏

JV: Even when we talk about atheist, they have anti notion of the word GOD. Instead they will use natural power or higher power. GOD word has been misused a lot to create divisions. And therefore sometimes we want to refrain using it. In the process we negate everything that possibly could have explained or made me aware of this higher power.

SS: True

VS: I have a doubt from where Sunita left yesterday. What must my attitude be and what must I practice in order to see God in everyone...
Treat others with respect?

JV: Vinod. Its very simple. What reason do you have not respect others? And strangely answer is none :) hai na.

GP: Swamiji, just to add to yesterday's discussion. I think that unless one goes through the path of Pooja, japa and contemplation, one cannot serve the world with an attitude of serving the lord.
And without going through these self-preparatory exercises, we will not have the right attitude of devotion and service.
Till then, whatever 'social service' we do will not be true service of the lord (much as we would like to believe so) but we would be serving our own ego!
And when we say that such social service is enough and all the other steps (Pooja, japa, study) are not required or are a waste, then we're just finding excuses or demonstrating our ignorance.

VS: Thanks Jigs and I agree Bhaiya

GP: But it is important to also realise that we would have truly 'ripened and evolved' through our sadhana only when we reach this state. Of being able to see the world as a reflection of the lord and serving the world with the same bhaav and devotion that we do our Pooja and japa.

VS: Somehow GP Bhaiya also indirectly answered my Question. God is so Great. The solution is nityanushtaana, Japa, Pooja

SS: Well said GPji

VS: In order to treat others with respect n spread happiness... I need to be happy first... And my Sadhana like Japa, Pooja will make my happy n peaceful within. Thanks a lot Bhaiya, jigs, Swamiji and everyone. You solved one of my issues when my mind was not available.

Upadesh Saar : Verse 5 (Day 1)

SS: Hari om. Was busy with sadhana day programme of 3rd august so could not continue upadesha saar. Am back now. Someone wanted the summary of thinking, reflection and contemplation. I am reposting what i had sent.

Wonderful interactions on the topic by everyone. Just to summarise: according to vedanta thinking is natural to the mind. It may be logical or illogical, structured or random, dull or bright etc.

Reflection or manan is to use scriptural logic to understand the nature of the Reality or world or Self. Yuktibhih anuchintanam is manan. It is to remove doubts and gain clarity and conviction. It can be done by oneself or through discussion with someone or a group or a lecture etc. Many ways are there for reflection.

Contemplation is called nididhyaasana. It is to remove contrary feeling that one has inspite of intellectual conviction. Vipareeta bhaavana is removed through contemplation. It is also the direct means to abide in the Reality by asserting that i am That. It is defined as adviteeya-vastuni sajaateeya-vritti-pravahaha. It is a natural consequence of reflection. No logic is used here. Words are used as pointers to lift the mind to the state indicated by the pointer and one lets go of words and pointers thereafter.

Eg. Manan would be to logically try and understand why i am not the bmi. Yet the feeling remains inspite of conviction that i am the body. Contemplation is to use pointers like chidananda rupah shivoham shivoham and drop the contrary feeling and abide in the state conveyed by chidananda rupah shivoham shivoham
We move to the next verse?

Su: Yes Swamiji

SK: Pl do Swamiji.

NG: Yes Swamiji...have been missing this class

SS: Verse 5: Serving the world with the attitude of serving the Lord is (true) worship of the Lord who is the wielder of the eight-fold forms.

Jagata isha-dhi yukta sevanam
Ashta-murti-bhrd devapujanam.

This is Ramana Maharshi's definition of Pooja. Highest form of worship is this.
Many people conveniently think that they are practising this and no other spiritual sadhana is required. How do we know whether we are ready and practicing this or its a trick of the mind?

NG: If we are truly practicing this, there should be no insistence on type of work that we will perform and insistence on a particular result? We should be able to do our duty to the best of our ability and accept whatever result as prasad - whether we like it or not?
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MN: Rightly said
That prasad-bhav should apply to every action in our life then only we can say we are living upto this

KG: It's a very lofty state to see and feel the entire world as Lord. One validation could be to check attachment to loved ones. Getting purified (chitta shuddhi or peace) by every and all acts (service) done in the world.
What is the eight-fold form mentioned here?

SR: To see the entire world as the Lord..umm! With loved ones, selfless serving- somewhat easier(attachment). But the same with others, ...even that 'snob' or 'cheat' or 'thankless'....the mere thought seems impossible to us, no?

NB: i think dat a feeling of humility cmes wid actions dedicated to d Lord..n as v advance in dis practice d sense of doership also dissolves..

V slowly learn to forgive n forget n start becomin detached n more accomodating in our daily lives..

SR: I think it is possible when we look beyond the object/person we are serving & simply focus on the right action with the right attitude to the best of our capacity. This practice over a period of time with constant introspection & cross checking can help us move to the next step where every action is dedicated to the lord.

NB: Hmm...it vl also bring about efficiency in our actions as v want to do best for d Lord

SK: Seeking the Lord through thought, word and deed...like Hanumanji ever at His service, giving our best always.

SS: What is important in this practice is our bhaav of bhakti and seva. Prasad buddhi etc can get us there but thats not referred to here. One should ask oneself these questions:

• Do i see the world as a manifestation of the Lord?
  If not, why dont i do worship of a form where atleast one form i can see as HIS manifestation? We dont do form worship and invoke devotion. Then how can we experience the whole world as HIS form?
• are my actions done with an attitude to serve HIM and give my best without compromise? Iswaraarpitam bhav is there or not? I have to check this. Eg. I may do exercise to lose weight but i can dedicate this to the Lord and then do it. I may serve my child but i can remember that HE alone manifests as the child and do whats needed.
• Do i feel devotion while acting? Not just devotion to the work or people or country but devotion to HIM because whom i have the power to work, feel and think? I can pause for a moment amidst work and feel grateful to HIM for all His Grace.

The world is made up of eight aspects: 5 elements, sun, moon and the Jeeva or Individuality. Thats why the Lord is called the one who wields the eight fold forms.

KG: Got it Swamiji!

JV: Now it is getting technical. I like it. This lord who wields eight fold form is ishhwara.

SS: Geeta calls it as ashtadhaa-prakriti. Lord controls it.
5 elements, mind, intellect and ego are called ashtadhaa prakriti there. In our earlier definition the moon there corresponds to the mind here and sun corresponds to the Intellect and jeeva corresponds to the ego.
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DA: Thanks Swamiji. For summarise

Su: I am thinking what should be my attitude to even start thinking/looking (intellectually) at the world as the Lord.

It will take a complete shift in paradigm. My definition of the Lord will also have to change. My concept of good and bad has to change. Will have to become flexible, in a structured way! Resistance has to get diluted. It's an entire rehab program... sounds more like a revolution against all that my mind may believe now..... this itself will take a life time

Right now we serve when we suits us (I speak for myself largely)... when everything else is taken care of.... this asks us to put the world before us...

Upadesh Saar : Verse 4 (Day 10)

SS: If we say - Ram come here! What happens? Whoever is Ram will respond by coming. How does that happen? Ram drops the word Ram, drops the word meaning - one who revels in all, drops the thinking that someone called ram is being called. He identifies with what Ram indicates - himself and feels i am being called and so he comes.
Same way in contemplation on sacchidananda, one drops the word, word-meaning, thinking of Sacchidananda as something other than me and identifies totally with the state of Self as one's nature.

Pooja is done with body, speech & mind. Japa with the speech & mind. Contemplation only with the mind. Each one is subtler than the other.

GP: Beautiful swamiji! I never looked at it from this perspective!

Upadesh Saar : Verse 4 (Day 9)

RP: My take on thinking, reflection, contemplation with an example
Statement "Aham Brahmasmi"

1. Thinking (thoughts could be )what a great statement, I should study more , this book is nice, don't know when I will get time, I should plan a time table etc.
2. Reflection - if I am Brahman then I cannot be the body, nor the mind , but I feel I am this limited self...,what could be the reason, does it mean all this is fleeting? This means my values are incorrect....Etc.
3. Contemplation - what's meant by Brahman - sat chit ananda. What is sat ? chit ?Who am I really? How do I experience all this? It is in the light of consciousness, I am sakshi etc.

Su: So that means the stage of reflection ends once conviction comes
Contemplation is where I transform from the Enquirer to the experiencer of those convictions....

RP: I think so. Reflection helps in intellectual appreciation and getting conviction. Reflection is like peeling of onion - in the light of the truth - layers of our own understanding get peeled - body is not I, mind is not I , this world is not real etc. Contemplation leads to actual experience of the truth. Like the Nirvana shatkam - line starts with I am not bmi etc and ends with childananda roopa shivoham. (This is what I think)

Su: So if that is contemplation, I think I understand the concept. But still confused about the process....

GP: I feel that contemplation is also a step before the actual experience. Once you are an experienced, there is no contemplation required.
Maybe 'reflection' is the phase between 'thinking' to conviction and clarity; and contemplation is the phase between this clarity to the 'experience'

RP: Agree it is a bit confusing. Actually we know reality is not in the realm of thoughts. So any level of thinking cannot lead us to direct experience. Thinking or reflection can lead us to I am not this this etc. In contemplation the thoughts eventually reduce and finally stop. "I am that" is then revealed. ( yea I already read the last page of the book - that's how I know this!!! - just guessing). Contemplation in daily usage "after contemplating a lot on the idea I can clearly "see" that this plan will definitely work"

VS: What if I am still trying to understand and I am blank. Is it thinking, reflection, contemplation or nothing

GP: If I'm trying to understand something, then it is reflection. I'm still on the path towards clarity.
It means I'm mentally grappling with an idea and I'm trying to reconcile it my my current view on that subject.

SS: Wonderful interactions on the topic by everyone.
Just to summarise: according to vedanta thinking is natural to the mind. It may be logical or illogical, structured or random, dull or bright etc.

Reflection or manan is to use scriptural logic to understand the nature of the Reality or world or Self. Yuktibhih anuchintanam is manan. It is to remove doubts and gain clarity and conviction. It can be done by oneself or through discussion with someone or a group or a lecture etc. Many ways are there for reflection.

Contemplation is called nididhyaasana. It is to remove contrary feeling that one has inspite of intellectual conviction. Vipareeta bhaavana is removed through contemplation. It is also the direct means to abide in the Reality by asserting that i am That. It is defined as adviteeya-vastuni sajaateeya-vritti-pravahaha. It is a natural consequence of reflection. No logic is used here. Words are used as pointers to lift the mind to the state indicated by the pointer and one lets go of words and pointers thereafter.

Eg. Manan would be to logically try and understand why i am not the bmi. Yet the feeling remains inspite of conviction that i am the body. Contemplation is to use pointers like chidananda rupah shivoham shivoham and drop the contrary feeling and abide in the state conveyed by chidananda rupah shivoham shivoham

JV: Shivoham, shivoham. My gratitude and pranam to swamiji for such clear and direct pointers.

NB: Its now so clear Swamiji

VS: Thanks Swamiji

Upadesh Saar : Verse 4 (Day 8)

SS: Pooja and japa we saw about. We move on chintanam or contemplation. What is the difference between thinking, reflecting and contemplating?

SK: I reflect on something that I have already experienced or read. I contemplate on things which I wish to experience. I wish to see. I think about anything and everything from present futre and past.
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MN: Reflections are like learnings where you look back on what are the takeaways from an experience you just had...Not all experiences make you reflect...

DN: I see it in an evolutionary sense- thinking, reflection then contemplation. Reflection is non involvement in a thought whereas contemplation requires applied or deep involvement in the thought

RB: Sorry to go back to Japa for one sec. Br. Gautamji gave a good analogy for Japa. It's like going to the gym. At first you don't really want to go and hardly see any benefit. Eventually you feel better and can't do without it.

VS: So nice Rishi
I'm still thinking about the difference

SS: General differences expressed so far are fine. We also need to think about the difference in the context of vedanta.
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MN: Swamiji is contemplation application of the knowledge that you learn from a scriptural text in life; I feel contemplation is imbibing the knowledge put forth in scriptures and making it your own...

VS: Thinking is probing and understanding the meaning
Reflecting is imagining the same meaning or idea in action. There might be more questions and we probe and understand it better.
Contemplation is practice of the thought, analysing and masticating it like a cow does to an already eaten grass. Day in and day out we try to relate and apply this, and the thought becomes my own. And I keep probing further and further until I am convinced.
And such a nice thought Sunita and apt for today's discussion. We can't appreciate unless we have taken the trouble to understand it.

GP: Thinking is as natural as breathing for us. There is a steady flow of thoughts in us every moment. Sometimes we don't even pay attention to them. But often we focus our thoughts on a particular subject. All this constitutes thinking.
Reflection is bringing back thoughts from our memory and playing it back to get more clarity and to make it more firm within us. So when we study vedanta, we learn a new idea during satsang or while reading or listening. We then bring back this idea in our mind and replay the idea. This act of replaying it in our minds and then establishing it in our intellect is reflection.

Su: About thinking I have the same idea as GP. Reflection - is trying to understand the logic and science but behind the concept so that we can make the idea ours and become more convinced. So it's about this self dialogue that we will have within to argue out so that the intellect becomes convinced. Once convinced assimilation can happen

Mere belief is of no use... we have to become convinced. Iam convinced about the law of gravity that's why I will not even entertain the idea of experimenting with jumping from a height.
Conviction can Come only with reflection, where my mind after all the tossing and turning of the idea in my head has on its own come to conclusion that the concept taught is the Truth.

GP: Contemplation is the next step after japa? Where we focus on and try to soak in the idea gained by our intellect through reflection. Contemplation should then help move the idea from my intellect into an actual experience.
I am not very clear how exactly contemplation is different from reflection though.

KG: My thougts
Japa - tool to focus. Mantras and Namam
Contemplation - focus on idea provided by the mantras, Namam, shastras, etc
I thought contemplation and reflection are same?
'Thinking' is general sense of mind. 'Contemplation' is directed 'thinking'.

DM: As per me thinking is a cognitive way of making sense of any concept presented. Reflection is the process of slowing down the mind n breaking the concepts n my analysis about the concept and making further sense. I m not too clear abt contemplation. But responding to this question I am thinking because its my top of mind response.

GP: Is contemplation a stepping stone into meditation?

SS: Yes

SR: Can we say swamiji?.
Thinking is action of mind to produce thoughts, ideas opinions judgments. Reflecting - deeper thinking, knowledge made clear, doubts removed. Contemplating- assimilating knowledge, focussing on meaning.

Upadesh Saar : Verse 4 (Day 7)

SS: While doing japa the following can be focussed upon:

1. Visualise the form of the lord or
2. Visualise the alphabets of the mantra or
3. Pay attention to the sound of mantra chanting or
4. Focus on silence between 2 repetitions or
5. Contemplate on the meaning.

This is in increasing order of subtlety.

When to do japa?

• Daily fixed quantity is a must. Fixed time and place are preferable. If not possible stick to fixed quantity.
• At other times one can do upon waking up, before eating food, take a mantram-break instead of coffee break while at work, when emotions overwhelm or we lose equanimity, while waiting for a bus or in a queue or in traffic or on a phone, dedicate it to others for their health or wellbeing etc.
• And at night before sleeping.

Practice of the week: mantram walk is very helpful. One can do it when one is exercising or when one is disturbed... Walk briskly and synchronise the mantra chanting with breathing and walking. It Channelizes the mental energy into productive and higher aspects of ourselves.

How many of us do japa? What quantity?

Japa of one ishta mantra and gayatri mantra is sufficient. More mantras are not necessary. Every mantra can bless us with everything. So different mantra for health, wealth, progeny, etc are not needed because results come from the Lord and not the mantra.

VS: Based on the difference between chanting and Japa, I don't Japa regularly. Whenever I do it's 108. I am sure I am accumulating Pratyaya Dosha. My Japa mantra is also not constant.
Thanks a lot for the various options and exercise

DM: I dont do japa.. I find myself postponing to start this practise.i hv bought japa mala n had started but got lost in the counting n then started asking wats the use of doing it.. I said to myself"i am not convinced" but now with this discussion I understand why I need to start. .
So is chanting "om" japa? N is japa mala necessary? It seems to distract me.. is it necessary to count at all?
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VN: I was consistent in Japa for 3 years till end of last year. This year, its just twice or thrice a week. Have decided to bring it back to routine.

DN: Thank you Swamiji very handy tips

SS: Daily Practice for 21 days: choose your MPG(My Personal God) or ishta devata and a mantra. Visualise the deity and invoke love in the heart for that form. Chant the mantra 21 times only. It will take max 10min. Today is 1st Shravan Somvaar. Take this sankalpa to do japa 21 times daily for 21 days atleast.
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MN: Yes Swamiji
I chant 'Om Namah Shiva' when my mind is disturbed but from now on will make it a daily practice

SK: Thank you Swamiji.

‎SR: I did japa continously for a year post YEP ...but slowly became irregular...wil start it frm today...thnk u swamiji

CS: Thank you Swamiji

AT: I was very regular in Japa when in Germany. These days it happens on the go like during walking or travel or when I wish to just quieten my mind. I miss the discipline and wish to start again.

Upadesh Saar : Verse 4 (Day 6)

RP: Continuing yesterday's question - japa involves chanting lords name or Vedic mantra like soham etc. there is a strong connection between name, form and the ideal behind the name. We have heard that Raam and Raam Naam are the same etc. Thus continuous repetition of the name with devotion actually takes us closer to the ideal. It is as though the gap between the chanter and chanted reduces. focussing on a dot can help in concentration for a short time but it does not go beyond that.

‎KG: Man is defined as the thoughts he maintains. By that maintaining lords name or any mantra will have a tendency 2 take him closer 2 the ideal. Lords name will submit mind 2 HIS attributes, mantras also have high ideas in it.
In general, Japa on any object will take us closer 2 the object in terms of its nature. As sadhaks want 2 realize HIM, having HIS thoughts will be a stepping stone. In worldly projects we have experienced that we have achieved goals by constantly contemplating on it. Constantly discussing and keeping its thoughts.... While hitting the Gym or Asana yoga or dot conc. has definitely helped indirectly....

SS: Beautiful thoughts shared by everyone on japa.
Ja- janma vicchedaha. Pa- Paapa Naashakaha. This is the etymology of japa. Helps one to go beyond transmigration and destroys agitations of the mind and past negative karma. A mantra(vedic or puranic) is used in Japa. Any word cannot be used in japa because mantra is a spiritual sound formulae.
Japa helps a person to

1. Develop concentration and purity.
2. Integrates the BMI
3. Qualifications needed for Self-Knowledge are cultivated by Japa. Eg sukshma buddhi or subtle intellect. Agra buddhi or sharp intellect. Suddha man or pure mind.
4. Holding on to the name and form we let it go deep into subconscious mind and transform it. Genius of Rishis we must admit here that they found methods of subconscious training and also unconscious vasanas elimination.
5. In impulsive times japa comes to our rescue when we are overwhelmed by emotions like anger, lust, jealousy etc. Even in times of elation, fear etc it helps. Hence equanimity and balance, one can maintain through japa.

Mind trained in japa is like pre-cooked food. It is ready for 'consumption' said Poojya Gurudev. He did the japa of Om Namah Shivaya in childhood and later on as a seeker and even after being a master he used to have a japa mala on his wrist and keep doing japa...

VS: Hari Om and thanks Swamiji
Is Japa just one name or is it multiple names. Is chanting Japa? E.g.Vishnu Sahasranama or Rudra Japa

SS: One name repeated is japa. If a whole stotram or suktam is chanted 11 times or more then its japa

GP: Ah! Why is a stotram or suktam chanted once not counted as japa? It seems to meet all the criteria of japa as defined earlier.

SS: Stotram or suktam comes under chanting and not japa because there is no repetition and reinforcement of one name and form. There are more supports involved because of many ideas present therein. Also japa has 4 stages loud, soft, mental and effortless. Chanting once does not have these.

GP: Got it swmiji

SS: Holding on to one name and form is much more tougher than chanting stotrams n stuties and to maintain devotion in japa is toughest.

Su: I think since the technique of Japa Is to help the mind develop single pointed focus, so stotram with different names hence visualisation of different forms... does not achieve that.... right Swamiji?

SS: It does achieve single pointedness but to a limited extent. From many diverse thoughts of different things, one has come to many diverse thoughts about the Lord. Pooja, stotram chanting etc help in this. Japa is the next step - holding on to one thought of the Lord. Higher level of single-pointedness

SK: Thank you for clarifying that Swamiji. 🙏

RB: Swamiji. Just to share my experience. I used to do my japa before and for the previous 12-14 months didn't do it for various reasons. ( don't want to blame me becoming a father). My japa Mala was in my sight but never did I pick it up. Then one day a few weeks back I just picked my japa Mala from the altar and every night before sleeping do my japa. I feel centered and more balanced now. It's my preparation to face the next day with conviction and power.

SS: Thats true Rishi

Upadesh Saar : Verse 4 (Day 5)

Video

SS: We are on verse 4 of Upadesha Saar. We saw about pooja. It is performed involving body speech and mind. We move on to the next practice. Japa. Its is performed by speech and mind. Hence it is subtler.
What is meant by japa? Why japa? Will it not make the mind mechanical? Many philosophers say so

Su: It's the repetition of the Lord's name. It helps in single pointed focus of the mind. Mechanical or not depends on our attitude when we do japa. I can either sit and mechanically repeat 108 times, or do it with bhava and visualizing the Lord
From what I understand everything in the preparation stages is to bring the mind to single pointed focus

SS: Why not gaze at a candle-tip or focus on a dot on the wall or any other method for concentration and single pointedness. Why japa?

Su: Because with ishta devta or Guru there is a emotional connect. Hence mind is ready to cooperate. Plus when you are taking the Lords name you invoke His grace and blessings.

SK: Japa involves the body and mind too - chanting the Lords name, moving the beads of the japa mala, focusing on the Lord completely.

SR: Also it is difficult to develop love or devotion on a dot or lamp flame.

DN: The idea of japa whilst bringing single pointedness ultimately leads to purity of mind. Focusing on a flame or dot on the wall does not achieve that.

VS: Timely.. thanks a lot

NM: I think dat constant practice of japa also trains d mind to live in d present moment otherwise.
N it also gives an inexplicable inner strength to go along d day

Su: To do 20 mins of successful Japa, I need to be disciplined for 23 hrs and 40mins. Hence Japa also accomplishes BMI integration.

NG: The name and the qualities and values that the name implies help in purification of the mind. May not work with flame or dot unless flame is associated with agni / samata (treating all equally)

VG: 🙏 Thank you everyone for the beautiful insights

VS: Right from the time we are born, we are used to names and forms. When I take a name I get a form. Japa helps me meditate on the form by chanting a name and imagining the glories of the Lord with the name. It starts with imagining the attractive glory of the Lord and finally reaches the form of the Lord and beyond.
Sitting brings integration of the body... then the mind enjoys the glories and finally becomes silent wonderstruck thinking of the All perfect being.

AT: Japa limits the chattering of mind, helps meditate and strengthens the bond with the Lord.