Upadesh Saar : Verse 4 (Day 9)

RP: My take on thinking, reflection, contemplation with an example
Statement "Aham Brahmasmi"

1. Thinking (thoughts could be )what a great statement, I should study more , this book is nice, don't know when I will get time, I should plan a time table etc.
2. Reflection - if I am Brahman then I cannot be the body, nor the mind , but I feel I am this limited self...,what could be the reason, does it mean all this is fleeting? This means my values are incorrect....Etc.
3. Contemplation - what's meant by Brahman - sat chit ananda. What is sat ? chit ?Who am I really? How do I experience all this? It is in the light of consciousness, I am sakshi etc.

Su: So that means the stage of reflection ends once conviction comes
Contemplation is where I transform from the Enquirer to the experiencer of those convictions....

RP: I think so. Reflection helps in intellectual appreciation and getting conviction. Reflection is like peeling of onion - in the light of the truth - layers of our own understanding get peeled - body is not I, mind is not I , this world is not real etc. Contemplation leads to actual experience of the truth. Like the Nirvana shatkam - line starts with I am not bmi etc and ends with childananda roopa shivoham. (This is what I think)

Su: So if that is contemplation, I think I understand the concept. But still confused about the process....

GP: I feel that contemplation is also a step before the actual experience. Once you are an experienced, there is no contemplation required.
Maybe 'reflection' is the phase between 'thinking' to conviction and clarity; and contemplation is the phase between this clarity to the 'experience'

RP: Agree it is a bit confusing. Actually we know reality is not in the realm of thoughts. So any level of thinking cannot lead us to direct experience. Thinking or reflection can lead us to I am not this this etc. In contemplation the thoughts eventually reduce and finally stop. "I am that" is then revealed. ( yea I already read the last page of the book - that's how I know this!!! - just guessing). Contemplation in daily usage "after contemplating a lot on the idea I can clearly "see" that this plan will definitely work"

VS: What if I am still trying to understand and I am blank. Is it thinking, reflection, contemplation or nothing

GP: If I'm trying to understand something, then it is reflection. I'm still on the path towards clarity.
It means I'm mentally grappling with an idea and I'm trying to reconcile it my my current view on that subject.

SS: Wonderful interactions on the topic by everyone.
Just to summarise: according to vedanta thinking is natural to the mind. It may be logical or illogical, structured or random, dull or bright etc.

Reflection or manan is to use scriptural logic to understand the nature of the Reality or world or Self. Yuktibhih anuchintanam is manan. It is to remove doubts and gain clarity and conviction. It can be done by oneself or through discussion with someone or a group or a lecture etc. Many ways are there for reflection.

Contemplation is called nididhyaasana. It is to remove contrary feeling that one has inspite of intellectual conviction. Vipareeta bhaavana is removed through contemplation. It is also the direct means to abide in the Reality by asserting that i am That. It is defined as adviteeya-vastuni sajaateeya-vritti-pravahaha. It is a natural consequence of reflection. No logic is used here. Words are used as pointers to lift the mind to the state indicated by the pointer and one lets go of words and pointers thereafter.

Eg. Manan would be to logically try and understand why i am not the bmi. Yet the feeling remains inspite of conviction that i am the body. Contemplation is to use pointers like chidananda rupah shivoham shivoham and drop the contrary feeling and abide in the state conveyed by chidananda rupah shivoham shivoham

JV: Shivoham, shivoham. My gratitude and pranam to swamiji for such clear and direct pointers.

NB: Its now so clear Swamiji

VS: Thanks Swamiji

Upadesh Saar : Verse 4 (Day 8)

SS: Pooja and japa we saw about. We move on chintanam or contemplation. What is the difference between thinking, reflecting and contemplating?

SK: I reflect on something that I have already experienced or read. I contemplate on things which I wish to experience. I wish to see. I think about anything and everything from present futre and past.
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MN: Reflections are like learnings where you look back on what are the takeaways from an experience you just had...Not all experiences make you reflect...

DN: I see it in an evolutionary sense- thinking, reflection then contemplation. Reflection is non involvement in a thought whereas contemplation requires applied or deep involvement in the thought

RB: Sorry to go back to Japa for one sec. Br. Gautamji gave a good analogy for Japa. It's like going to the gym. At first you don't really want to go and hardly see any benefit. Eventually you feel better and can't do without it.

VS: So nice Rishi
I'm still thinking about the difference

SS: General differences expressed so far are fine. We also need to think about the difference in the context of vedanta.
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MN: Swamiji is contemplation application of the knowledge that you learn from a scriptural text in life; I feel contemplation is imbibing the knowledge put forth in scriptures and making it your own...

VS: Thinking is probing and understanding the meaning
Reflecting is imagining the same meaning or idea in action. There might be more questions and we probe and understand it better.
Contemplation is practice of the thought, analysing and masticating it like a cow does to an already eaten grass. Day in and day out we try to relate and apply this, and the thought becomes my own. And I keep probing further and further until I am convinced.
And such a nice thought Sunita and apt for today's discussion. We can't appreciate unless we have taken the trouble to understand it.

GP: Thinking is as natural as breathing for us. There is a steady flow of thoughts in us every moment. Sometimes we don't even pay attention to them. But often we focus our thoughts on a particular subject. All this constitutes thinking.
Reflection is bringing back thoughts from our memory and playing it back to get more clarity and to make it more firm within us. So when we study vedanta, we learn a new idea during satsang or while reading or listening. We then bring back this idea in our mind and replay the idea. This act of replaying it in our minds and then establishing it in our intellect is reflection.

Su: About thinking I have the same idea as GP. Reflection - is trying to understand the logic and science but behind the concept so that we can make the idea ours and become more convinced. So it's about this self dialogue that we will have within to argue out so that the intellect becomes convinced. Once convinced assimilation can happen

Mere belief is of no use... we have to become convinced. Iam convinced about the law of gravity that's why I will not even entertain the idea of experimenting with jumping from a height.
Conviction can Come only with reflection, where my mind after all the tossing and turning of the idea in my head has on its own come to conclusion that the concept taught is the Truth.

GP: Contemplation is the next step after japa? Where we focus on and try to soak in the idea gained by our intellect through reflection. Contemplation should then help move the idea from my intellect into an actual experience.
I am not very clear how exactly contemplation is different from reflection though.

KG: My thougts
Japa - tool to focus. Mantras and Namam
Contemplation - focus on idea provided by the mantras, Namam, shastras, etc
I thought contemplation and reflection are same?
'Thinking' is general sense of mind. 'Contemplation' is directed 'thinking'.

DM: As per me thinking is a cognitive way of making sense of any concept presented. Reflection is the process of slowing down the mind n breaking the concepts n my analysis about the concept and making further sense. I m not too clear abt contemplation. But responding to this question I am thinking because its my top of mind response.

GP: Is contemplation a stepping stone into meditation?

SS: Yes

SR: Can we say swamiji?.
Thinking is action of mind to produce thoughts, ideas opinions judgments. Reflecting - deeper thinking, knowledge made clear, doubts removed. Contemplating- assimilating knowledge, focussing on meaning.

Upadesh Saar : Verse 4 (Day 7)

SS: While doing japa the following can be focussed upon:

1. Visualise the form of the lord or
2. Visualise the alphabets of the mantra or
3. Pay attention to the sound of mantra chanting or
4. Focus on silence between 2 repetitions or
5. Contemplate on the meaning.

This is in increasing order of subtlety.

When to do japa?

• Daily fixed quantity is a must. Fixed time and place are preferable. If not possible stick to fixed quantity.
• At other times one can do upon waking up, before eating food, take a mantram-break instead of coffee break while at work, when emotions overwhelm or we lose equanimity, while waiting for a bus or in a queue or in traffic or on a phone, dedicate it to others for their health or wellbeing etc.
• And at night before sleeping.

Practice of the week: mantram walk is very helpful. One can do it when one is exercising or when one is disturbed... Walk briskly and synchronise the mantra chanting with breathing and walking. It Channelizes the mental energy into productive and higher aspects of ourselves.

How many of us do japa? What quantity?

Japa of one ishta mantra and gayatri mantra is sufficient. More mantras are not necessary. Every mantra can bless us with everything. So different mantra for health, wealth, progeny, etc are not needed because results come from the Lord and not the mantra.

VS: Based on the difference between chanting and Japa, I don't Japa regularly. Whenever I do it's 108. I am sure I am accumulating Pratyaya Dosha. My Japa mantra is also not constant.
Thanks a lot for the various options and exercise

DM: I dont do japa.. I find myself postponing to start this practise.i hv bought japa mala n had started but got lost in the counting n then started asking wats the use of doing it.. I said to myself"i am not convinced" but now with this discussion I understand why I need to start. .
So is chanting "om" japa? N is japa mala necessary? It seems to distract me.. is it necessary to count at all?
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VN: I was consistent in Japa for 3 years till end of last year. This year, its just twice or thrice a week. Have decided to bring it back to routine.

DN: Thank you Swamiji very handy tips

SS: Daily Practice for 21 days: choose your MPG(My Personal God) or ishta devata and a mantra. Visualise the deity and invoke love in the heart for that form. Chant the mantra 21 times only. It will take max 10min. Today is 1st Shravan Somvaar. Take this sankalpa to do japa 21 times daily for 21 days atleast.
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MN: Yes Swamiji
I chant 'Om Namah Shiva' when my mind is disturbed but from now on will make it a daily practice

SK: Thank you Swamiji.

‎SR: I did japa continously for a year post YEP ...but slowly became irregular...wil start it frm today...thnk u swamiji

CS: Thank you Swamiji

AT: I was very regular in Japa when in Germany. These days it happens on the go like during walking or travel or when I wish to just quieten my mind. I miss the discipline and wish to start again.

Upadesh Saar : Verse 4 (Day 6)

RP: Continuing yesterday's question - japa involves chanting lords name or Vedic mantra like soham etc. there is a strong connection between name, form and the ideal behind the name. We have heard that Raam and Raam Naam are the same etc. Thus continuous repetition of the name with devotion actually takes us closer to the ideal. It is as though the gap between the chanter and chanted reduces. focussing on a dot can help in concentration for a short time but it does not go beyond that.

‎KG: Man is defined as the thoughts he maintains. By that maintaining lords name or any mantra will have a tendency 2 take him closer 2 the ideal. Lords name will submit mind 2 HIS attributes, mantras also have high ideas in it.
In general, Japa on any object will take us closer 2 the object in terms of its nature. As sadhaks want 2 realize HIM, having HIS thoughts will be a stepping stone. In worldly projects we have experienced that we have achieved goals by constantly contemplating on it. Constantly discussing and keeping its thoughts.... While hitting the Gym or Asana yoga or dot conc. has definitely helped indirectly....

SS: Beautiful thoughts shared by everyone on japa.
Ja- janma vicchedaha. Pa- Paapa Naashakaha. This is the etymology of japa. Helps one to go beyond transmigration and destroys agitations of the mind and past negative karma. A mantra(vedic or puranic) is used in Japa. Any word cannot be used in japa because mantra is a spiritual sound formulae.
Japa helps a person to

1. Develop concentration and purity.
2. Integrates the BMI
3. Qualifications needed for Self-Knowledge are cultivated by Japa. Eg sukshma buddhi or subtle intellect. Agra buddhi or sharp intellect. Suddha man or pure mind.
4. Holding on to the name and form we let it go deep into subconscious mind and transform it. Genius of Rishis we must admit here that they found methods of subconscious training and also unconscious vasanas elimination.
5. In impulsive times japa comes to our rescue when we are overwhelmed by emotions like anger, lust, jealousy etc. Even in times of elation, fear etc it helps. Hence equanimity and balance, one can maintain through japa.

Mind trained in japa is like pre-cooked food. It is ready for 'consumption' said Poojya Gurudev. He did the japa of Om Namah Shivaya in childhood and later on as a seeker and even after being a master he used to have a japa mala on his wrist and keep doing japa...

VS: Hari Om and thanks Swamiji
Is Japa just one name or is it multiple names. Is chanting Japa? E.g.Vishnu Sahasranama or Rudra Japa

SS: One name repeated is japa. If a whole stotram or suktam is chanted 11 times or more then its japa

GP: Ah! Why is a stotram or suktam chanted once not counted as japa? It seems to meet all the criteria of japa as defined earlier.

SS: Stotram or suktam comes under chanting and not japa because there is no repetition and reinforcement of one name and form. There are more supports involved because of many ideas present therein. Also japa has 4 stages loud, soft, mental and effortless. Chanting once does not have these.

GP: Got it swmiji

SS: Holding on to one name and form is much more tougher than chanting stotrams n stuties and to maintain devotion in japa is toughest.

Su: I think since the technique of Japa Is to help the mind develop single pointed focus, so stotram with different names hence visualisation of different forms... does not achieve that.... right Swamiji?

SS: It does achieve single pointedness but to a limited extent. From many diverse thoughts of different things, one has come to many diverse thoughts about the Lord. Pooja, stotram chanting etc help in this. Japa is the next step - holding on to one thought of the Lord. Higher level of single-pointedness

SK: Thank you for clarifying that Swamiji. 🙏

RB: Swamiji. Just to share my experience. I used to do my japa before and for the previous 12-14 months didn't do it for various reasons. ( don't want to blame me becoming a father). My japa Mala was in my sight but never did I pick it up. Then one day a few weeks back I just picked my japa Mala from the altar and every night before sleeping do my japa. I feel centered and more balanced now. It's my preparation to face the next day with conviction and power.

SS: Thats true Rishi

Upadesh Saar : Verse 4 (Day 5)

Video

SS: We are on verse 4 of Upadesha Saar. We saw about pooja. It is performed involving body speech and mind. We move on to the next practice. Japa. Its is performed by speech and mind. Hence it is subtler.
What is meant by japa? Why japa? Will it not make the mind mechanical? Many philosophers say so

Su: It's the repetition of the Lord's name. It helps in single pointed focus of the mind. Mechanical or not depends on our attitude when we do japa. I can either sit and mechanically repeat 108 times, or do it with bhava and visualizing the Lord
From what I understand everything in the preparation stages is to bring the mind to single pointed focus

SS: Why not gaze at a candle-tip or focus on a dot on the wall or any other method for concentration and single pointedness. Why japa?

Su: Because with ishta devta or Guru there is a emotional connect. Hence mind is ready to cooperate. Plus when you are taking the Lords name you invoke His grace and blessings.

SK: Japa involves the body and mind too - chanting the Lords name, moving the beads of the japa mala, focusing on the Lord completely.

SR: Also it is difficult to develop love or devotion on a dot or lamp flame.

DN: The idea of japa whilst bringing single pointedness ultimately leads to purity of mind. Focusing on a flame or dot on the wall does not achieve that.

VS: Timely.. thanks a lot

NM: I think dat constant practice of japa also trains d mind to live in d present moment otherwise.
N it also gives an inexplicable inner strength to go along d day

Su: To do 20 mins of successful Japa, I need to be disciplined for 23 hrs and 40mins. Hence Japa also accomplishes BMI integration.

NG: The name and the qualities and values that the name implies help in purification of the mind. May not work with flame or dot unless flame is associated with agni / samata (treating all equally)

VG: 🙏 Thank you everyone for the beautiful insights

VS: Right from the time we are born, we are used to names and forms. When I take a name I get a form. Japa helps me meditate on the form by chanting a name and imagining the glories of the Lord with the name. It starts with imagining the attractive glory of the Lord and finally reaches the form of the Lord and beyond.
Sitting brings integration of the body... then the mind enjoys the glories and finally becomes silent wonderstruck thinking of the All perfect being.

AT: Japa limits the chattering of mind, helps meditate and strengthens the bond with the Lord.

Upadedsh Saar : Verse 4 (Day 4)

SS: Ramkumarji:

1. in the Pooja that we do, the shlokas and mantras are sattvik mantras. The steps, actions etc are sattvik and so there is no counter result of it if one makes mistakes. If one knowingly makes mistakes due to tamas then it becomes tamasic. Example knowingly chanting a vedic mantra without intonation or not offering what is required due to laziness etc. Even here, no counter result. Just that the purity that the mind could have achieved is lesser.
2. Also, when we ask for forgiveness at the end of the pooja for errors, it must be done sincerely so that we are protected from our own ego of having done pooja and a certain sense of self-righteousness that can creep in.
3. Where we know that we lack knowledge, we must gain the proper knowledge. Knowingly continuing ignorance is tamasic.
4. In specific rituals done for a specific result like wanting a progeny or wealth or health etc the steps have to be followed strictly because the desires result wont come without that. Just like if i want water then hydrogen 2 molecules and oxygen 1 molecule has to be mixed. No compromise there. Such karmas are called sakaama karma. Nachiketa's father was compromising in kathopanishad. No negative karma but no desired result too.
5. Harmful effects happen when we use tamasic mantras and rajasik mantras to hurt someone. Example black magic.
6. It is important to follow steps in Pooja because it helps one to discipline the mind, become selfless etc. But incase for some unavoidable reasons one cant follow it or makes a mistake, the Lord does not punish nor karma will beget negative karmaphala. Devotion is most important in the pooja and it can fulfil all lapses. Thats why the Lord says in geeta chapter 9 - whoever offers me a leaf, a flower, a fruit or even a drop of water with devotion, i partake of the devotion and bless the person.

VS: Swamiji is there adverse impact of shortening or skipping a pooja. I

SS: Skipping a pooja which is one's nitya karma or daily duty gives pratyavaaya dosha means error of omission and hence one has to do prayaschitta for it along with next pooja. Its like exercising everyday is necessary. Not doing it makes the health suffer and later one pays the price heavily. Shortening the pooja has no adverse effects. But it should not be done as a habit

VS: What is the prayaschitta
Extra pooja nxt day

SS: Yes
Prayaschitta literally means repentence
And atonement for errors

VS: Thanks Swamiji

NG: Pooja everyday, japa everyday, study everyday, exercise everyday AND all other daily activities everyday...am exhausted thinking about it😳

VS: And the word Nityakarma has only remained a definition. It was so easy until we were students or single(dont take it the other way)

SS: You can alternately do pooja/japa/meditation. Spend only 20min doing any one practice. 20min doing exercise 5 times a week. 20min study. This is the T20 formula for stress-free life.

NG: Yes Swamiji. That sounds really do-able 😃.

VS: Thanks a lot Swamiji...for the T20 formula. I'll need to talk to you sometime regarding 20 plus.

SS: Practice of the week: T20 formula. 20min spiritual practice. 20min exercise. 20min spiritual study. Lets attempt this and grow holistically.

VS: Swamiji can we include one of the 20 for our discussion
Sunitha please don't throw out lazy members

SS: Are you studying the commentary of the verses we are discussing? If yes and you are reflecting on it, then alone it is counted. Only discussion on this is not counted

VS: Yes
N I will continue

RP: Thanks a lot Swamiji! For patiently explaining every point.,
 

Upadesh Saar : Verse 4 (Day 3)

VS: Swamiji based on yesterday's Alphabet Safari does it mean Ravana did not dedicate himself to Shiva properly.

GP: One more point on Pooja : many of the Pooja vidhis are pointers to great vedantic truths eg. the aarti in the dark garbh-griha of a temple.

VS: Yes GP bhaiya.  Wonderful point
All vidhis, poojas, homas etc have scientific as well as vedantic logic.

GP: But there is a danger in trying to find scientific logic in Pooja vidhis. Sometimes the explanations tend to get absurd and actually have no scientific basis, thus turning off some people even more.

VS: This is similar to going to a wrong doctor.
Like Swamiji said start in good faith and we'll find our answers automatically

GP: When I do something out of love for someone, then l don't look for a logical reasoning. In fact, more often than not, the things we do are so illogical! But we do it out of love and we don't care about the logic.

VS: That is definitely a very good point
For that my love has to be steadfast na?
If we are not diverting, I remember Jigs n Krishna had attended a seminar (not sure if organised by CIF) in Bangalore years ago and shared a few amazing facts.

SS: Ravana never dedicated himself to Shiva. He prayed for power and he got that. Purity was not enough and ego never sublimated itself so it led to destruction.

VS: Thanks Swamiji.
So here the intention plays an important role

‎KG: Swamiji, to start with asking for worldly things as sankalpa during Pooja, is it always harming? I always felt asking the lord is better than begging in the world. Is there then the 3 types in Pooja too... sattvik, rajasic & tamasic. Also is Sankalpa always necessary, can't just doing it for luv 2 the Ishta not complete.

VS: In Sankalpa we can ask what we want or modify... like one I remember...asking pure and steadfast bhakti for the Lord
I know it's selfish n materialistic but feel begging to Lord is better than begging to the world.

SS: There is nothing wrong in asking worldly things from the Lord. Its like child asking the parent. Such a devotee is called artharthi in geeta chapter 7. What we do with what we have asked is important.

‎KG: Ok

VS: Thanks Swamiji... what we do with it is important

SS: Yes pooja is also of 3 types. When done with selflessness, only for expressing love or to cultivate noble virtues it is sattvik. When one asks materialistic things or freedom from suffering it is rajasik. When done to harm others or done without proper method or out of unwillingness it is tamasic

VS: So our aim should be to rise up in these levels

SS: Sankalpa means a strong resolve. It does not mean only asking something. Its also to know our connection with the universe(ancient GPS) because one's geographical location, tithi, paksha, maasa, ritu etc are taken into consideration and on one hand one's insignificance and humility it invokes and on the other helps one with vision of oneness. Also it is to make our action conscious and not mechanical. Whats the objective must be clear to us and we remain focussed on it.

RP: Swamiji how much to worry about mistakes and errors while doing pujas - because we have very limited knowledge about mantras or steps and procedures.., like you mentioned will it be taken as tamasic ? Will there be Counter effects ?

Upadesh Saar : Verse 4 (Day 2)

Su: Hari Om, GP you are right,  I think I believe pooja is inferior and avoidable with no  consequences.  I don't see it as an imperative step.

I believe it's good for those who enjoy it and are easily able to do it and find happiness /fulfillment etc.  The rest can make do without it..

Of course Iam wrong I know that,  I will have to take effort to teach my mind otherwise. 

But it's also true that whenever I sit to do pooja (the few times that I have) there are no emotions I feel to embarrass myself.  It's mechanical. May be because of the above belief.  I think why should I do these rituals when the bond between me and Lord is inside me... and not dependent on these actions. Of course that may be an excuse my mind is giving.. and sounding intelligent about it.  But the fact is I don't like doing pooja.

When Iam doing my Japa alone or just sitting in the temple by myself with Jagadeeshwara in front of me,  that's when I experience strong emotions.  So in that case 1) is a pooja done so mechanically just for the sake of doing it of any use.. I think no.  2) is there a way for people like me to develop a sense of emotional involvement when doing a act the intellect is not convinced about. 3) sorry but asking again,  is pooja/rituals an essential unavoidable step towards development of Bhakti.

 

RP: Gurudev's quote - Knowledge without devotion is tasteless. Devotion without knowledge is mere empty idol worship.

I think acceptance if rituals come more easily if we know or appreciate the reason behind it. When I started in the mission I used to question why is everyone falling at the feet of Gurudev. Many teenagers ask why go to temple or why do namaskar etc.

I once asked one of our Swamijis if we should force children to follow simple rituals or let them understand for themselves- he replied we should not give up and encourage them to follow and gave example of Gurudev himself - you would recall Gurudev telling about his childhood days when the evening puja was a must in his house and how later he would develop the relationship with The Lord. Hope you remember.

 

AV: It is also a step towards the BMI integration, I feel. If my intellect can accede to a higher ideal, I should be able to bring my body and heart to it as well..... Only then will it be complete.

 

VS: If you are able to feel the Lord within yourself all the time its a higher state and is called Manasa pooja. Whenever or not we do pooja to a vigraha, we just imagine we are doing the same to the baby Krishna or Baby Shiva in our heart and then the connection is completed. when Saint Thyagaraja was praying to Lord Rama's Vigraham he was actually imagining praying to the living Rama in His heart.

 

‎KG: I remember Tapovanji Maharaj's writing - He says yatra/pilgrim is the lowest form of upasana... Still if we read his books, his earlier life was full of yatras. Twice kailas on foot.

Many times Pooja could be good for starters and especially like ramkumar ji's mention about helping next generation build a bond with lord in some form.

"Once a sadhak establishes in a higher step, he/she may not want 2 indulge in lower steps of sadhana" - this is general understanding :) But when we watch the routine of swami and swaminis around, u get 2 see their daily sadhana includes a good amount of ritualistic Pooja. I once heard about Swami Subodhanandji, elaborate regular Pooja must in his daily sadhana. Wonder then should we not entertain our body and mind in Pooja. Specifically towards choosen Ishta.

 

VS: Nice one Krishna

 

SS: It is definitely possible to connect to the Lord without Pooja. But lets understand what is the significance of a pooja for a vedantic student:

1. Senses are extrovert and fickle. To withdraw the mind from the senses and focus on japa etc is not easy. We need to master the senses for it. Pooja provides an opportunity to engage the senses and also divinise them. We see HIS form, chant HIS name, offer flowers, naivedya to HIM, Listen to HIS glories etc. Walking to the temple, cleaning it, preparing it etc also train the senses and the mind.
2. most of us complain that our mind wanders in japa or meditation. A person who has done pooja learns concentration, visualisation because one constantly keeps one form in the mind and does the offerings. For children especially its very effective.
3. Integration also happens because BMI come together.
4. Develops a relationship with the Lord and channelise emotions through it. Hanuman looked upon Ram as the Lord. Ramakrishna as a mother. Meera as a beloved. Surdas as a friend. Whats my relationship with HIM i should find out and invoke love. When there is love we want to give. Pooja is giving what HE likes. Hence we say offer bilva, abhisheka, bhasma to shiva. Offer alankaar and lotus to vishnu. Offer kumkum to devi etc. Ofcourse it has symbolism too.
5. From physical pooja to maanas pooja to japa to meditation. This is the order of progress. Try it and you will see the difference.
6. Pooja is not a mechanical ritual. Its an expression of love and gratitude. One may say i can do that without pooja also. Fine. But the asana-siddhi, manah-shuddhi, sukhshma-buddhi and antarmukhi drishti that Pooja brings is unique.
7. Mantras have their own powers and when chanted with meaning it prepares us for contemplation.
8. To do a Pooja one has to live life in discipline and self-control. One cannot be indulgent and immoral and benefit from Pooja. It applies to all the spiritual practices. But rules for Pooja are simpler than for japa and meditation etc.
9. Pooja has 16 steps. Each of them invoke a bhaav. Eg. archana reminds me to offer my vasanas, aarti- to surrender totally, pradakshina - to let HIM be the centre of my life and let life revolve around Dharma etc. Will that happen if i just sit in front of the Lord? Mind needs activity  and dynamism.
10. Even if i dont know the meaning but if i do the pooja it will make me think- who is the Lord? Why should i worship? How? Etc. That itself is progress. Devotion arises.
11. Whole day i think about myself. Pooja is a time to ask what does HE like? What can i offer HIM?
12. I become more open to God's Grace
13. Sattvik actions help us to earn punya and punya brings satsang in our life. Pooja is one of the most sattvik actions whether done knowingly or unknowingly.
14. When devotion grows then only one goes beyond steps and becomes spontaneous. Without following the steps of Pooja, how can i be spontaneous? This applies in arts, science, martial arts, sports etc.
15. Pooja of a form is only a beginning. Slowly the same bhaav extends to all actions and whole world becomes our altar of worship.
    Its not the Pooja thats the problem actually. Its our lack of faith in the form, in pooja's effectiveness, our incapacity to submit ourselves to discipline and our belief that as an intellectual im not the -'Pooja-type'.
16. To cultivate the head is easy but to nurture the heart is tough. Pooja is an opportunity to put aside intellectual skepticism and tamas. Its actively invoking devotion and cultivating the heart. Questions like- does God want my offerings? Why waste money and resources in Pooja? Etc show human contradictions. Do we ask these questions when we waste so lavishly on branded products, elaborate parties, big-fat indian weddings or even as simple as the food we waste in our plates? Im not justifying. Milk offered in abhisheka can be collected and given to the needy but to call it sheer waste and not to do it in the name of intellectualism is not appropriate.

Swami Tapovanam used to visit soumya kasheesha temple everyday in uttarkashi. Guruji does Ram Pooja everyday and distributes prasad of his altar in the afternoon at His kutia. Meera, bharat, tulsidas, alwars of the south who are devotees of Vishnu, nayanmars who are devotees of shiva....all used pooja every effectively

 

JV: Devotion is so natural as you get closer and closer to the knowledge.

All the stotras, hyms, praises follow spontaneously.

 

VS: Swamiji what a wonderful explanation...

Thank you sooo much

 

RP: Superb and Detailed step by step explanation Swamiji!

So Sunitha is now inviting all of us to her place for Satyanarayan puja this Saturday! Good decision Sunitha !

 

Su: Superb Swamiji!!  Thanks a ton!!  Lot of food for thought.  And I like what you said... easy to cultivate the head tough to nurture the heart..... so true. It's difficult.

And Ramkumar... give me some time... I may just do that!!

 

SR: Thank you swamiji. Your explanation was so comprehensive. It gave me clarity  in my understanding. As well as in explaining the significance of pooja to others specially the children.

 

VS: Alphabet Safari A to Q of Pooja

 

SS: R to Z can also be filled up if required

Upadesh Saar : Verse 3 (Day 4), Verse 4 (Day 1)

SS: How do we develop bhakti?
‎KG: By listening to the glories of the lord.
VS: Swamiji... As you told to Neelima yesterday, Bhakti has to be nurtured.  By reading more about the Lord and His Glories I will be able to intellectually appreciate and emotionally connect to Him. Then I think about his glories during during the day. Then i think, , discuss or share it as a story or as bhajans. I like it so much that I dedicate some time to think or tp meditate on his forms or glories.
NG: By satsang
Su: I think there should be an intellectual angle to it, where i know the nature of the object of my Bhakti.  Unless I know the Lord,  who He is,  what is His nature etc.  The question of loving or respecting Him does not arise ( for me atleast)
So I think before satsangh and listening to His glories etc,  I need to have knowledge of Him.  So I guess that's the first step..
I think most people fear God...  because of their concept of the Lord . To graduate from God fearing to God loving,  we need a change in perspective
SS: Satsang is the best way to gain knowledge. Ram tells shabari about 9 steps in devotion. First step he says is satsang. Prathama bhagati santan kar sangaa.
Su: Got your point....
I guess doing pooja and other related rituals help in developing/nurturing Bhakti
SS: Verse 4: kaaya-vaang-manah kaaryam-uttamam.
Poojanam-japah-chintanam kramaat.
The actions done by the body i.e pooja, by the speech  i.e japa, by the mind i.e contemplation are serially superior to the previous one.
DM: Oh.. I have been doing puja swamiji for years without this understanding. .
I wouldn't stop for fear of the paap of stopping not because I believed. . There r times wen I would feel extremely peaceful or  tears would roll down n I would wonder y.. now I understand that was wen I United with Lord.. bhakti was flowing endlessly within n flowing out as tears..
When we say japa is it sitting in one place n chanting one name?
SS: Yes. We will see more about it once we finish discussing about pooja
DM: Ok swamiji
Su: I must confess I feel uncomfortable when doing any ritual like pooja, kirtan etc... I find it extremely difficult and awkward.  Is it wrong... because I feel like Iam committing a mistake by thinking like this.  But can't shake the discomfort
So my questions is can pooja/rituals  be avoided.
SS: What causes the discomfort has to be found out and addresses instead of avoiding
‎KG: Pooja like say Guru-paduka, is very involving not just 4 body but also mind. I think it's more of a concentration exercise where the radius of concentration is larger than other means.
Pooja confines ones body to follow a discipline or actions keeping all sense organs active and focussing on pleasing the Ishta.
NP: When we do Pooja to please Ishta aren't we having expectations? Instead out of love without expectations, knowing The Lord knows what's best for me attitude would reduce vasanas
Also is it Sunita that we are uncomfortable doing Pooja because surrender is not complete. Our intellect is not convinced?
Su: I have thinking seriously abt the cause of the discomfort  ....still thinking
VS: Swamiji we say khaate bhi Ram kaho Peete bhi Ram kaho. is it wrong to invoke the Lord when we are stressed out.
SS: No
GP: Sunitha, sometimes we are embarrassed about expressing our emotions. Sometimes we think it's inferior to study and contemplation and japa and meditation.

Upadesh Saar : Verse 3 (Day 3)

VS: Amazing discussion... I always miss the exact time of discussion. Thank you so much everyone
But remembered what Krishna said So for vedantin every moment is an opportunity in itself! Thx Ramkumarji :)
#6 is what I always find difficult... May be the surrender is still not complete
I prayed hard during work... and surrendered... but was not calm.
Also maybe because of point 4. Self Importance
SS: Dheere dheere re mana
Dheere sab kuch hoy
Maali seenche sau ghadaa
Ritu aaye fal hoy. - Kabir
O Mind! Everything happens slowly. Gardner may pour 100 pots of water but fruit comes only in the right season.
Gurudev used to always say that evolution is slow. Flower takes time to blossom.
VS: True Swamiji... its so ironical that patience is the key achieve this Goal. We need to be patient for the evolution to happen. Yet we need to be fast.
Tension of action
Su: That is really good Swamiji...
In the world of super speed we have started expecting immediate gratification in spirituality also.....
VS: Dheere Dheere re mana
Relax... oh mind
Soo true...
100 ghada... Is understatement
Anyway... have I even finished 50 is the question! !
SS: Point is not to put 100 pots of water. It is to slow down. 100 pots are not required and not going to speed up the process of getting fruits.
VS: But in our case we have to continue non stop right
But I understand that slowing down is in the attitude right Swamiji?
Su: I guess here it's not about slowing down,  it's about understanding that everything happens in it's own time following the natural laws of nature etc.  We need to understand that and adapt an attitude to accomodate that.
VS: Yes Sunitha... thanks
SS: Ramana Maharshi was a master of Brevity. In first three verses he has summarised the entire theory of karma, karma-bandhana and karma-yoga.
Anything to discuss more on it, we can. Else we move ahead
Su: Let's move ahead Swamiji
GP: Let's move ahead swamiji
VS: Yes Swamiji
SS: What is bhakti? Why bhakti?
Su: Emotion of love
For the Lord
Unless we love the Lord can't dedicate our actions and surrender
GP: Bhakti is faith. And faith can be invoked only in something that is higher. Something or someone that I deeply admire, respect and love.
It is implicit trust that I will be taken care of. I feel safe and secure in my bhakti.
Can I not have bhakti towards the scriptures, guru, etc?
VS: Bhakthi is expression of love  to my highest ideal... God or Guru who shows me the right path in life. I perform everything to God likes or I think He likes.  Constant thinking of Him.
This ideal is my best friend and loves me as I am. When I look at Him... He is perfect and that instills my respect for him.
Bhakthi can be for anything... our culture treats everything as God meaning everything should be respected.  Books, money,  vehicles, machines, people etc.
But what we should respect what we respect actually is different
GP: Is bhakti love? Or is it respect?
NP: Bhakti means devotion. Devotion to an ideal. When all our thoughts are directed to the ideal, there is an integration of BMI. There is harmony and thereby lesser vasanas generated.
GP: What is this devotion? How is it different from a person's devotion to his parents, family, profession, etc?
What does devotion mean actually?
VS: Devotion is love for the highest ideal.
SR: Bhakti is an emotional connect to the highest ideal. It includes love, devotion, faith & surrender
NP: The soldier has devotion to the nation. In war inspite of being injured the soldier doesn't care for his body but fights on for the sake of his country. If the mind is inspired the body will never matter.
Whereas if we have a small fever we won't go to office forget if we break our leg😉

SR: In a broad sense bhakti includes Guru, country etc
NP: I think Bhakti is devotion for something or someone inspiring. There is no doubt in our mind about the ideal. Also the higher the ideal more selfless will be the action and lesser ego
RP: We have read the sneha prema Bhakti sequence. Bhakti means the object of our love is considered great and we lovingly and proudly respect and accept the greatness.
Note that every powerful or great person does not become object of our devotion. There is something else that clicks
Probably the sense of belonging and personal connect with the full understanding of the greatness of the person or object
NP: Maybe that someone is what u want to be .
VS: Yes
Su: So all of us agree that love directed towards the higher is Bhakti...?
RP: Right. But there are other aspects if total love too - yashoda's love for child Krishna
Su: When we feel that emotion towards our equal it's love... towards the higher it's called devotion
I in yashoda's case it was love... not Bhakti
VS: The logic of equal.
RP: How about Radhas love then ?
VS: Logic of equal is not clear
Su: By equal I meant everyone/everything other than the Lord or some higher ideal like country etc
Radha... not sure
Love +  devotion?
VS: Expressions can be different
Love, friendship
Servant
Su: Question was what is Bhakti and why Bhakti?  I guess we will come to expression later
VS: Ok
NP: Bhakti is respect cum love
NG: Bhakti is what Hanuman had for Lord Ram
VS: Ans for what is clear
Why?
I mean we hv shared our views
SS: Bhakti is loving an ideal more than myself. It invokes surrender and self-forgetfulness. this can happen for the country, scriptures, guru, parents etc. Hence desh-bhakti or guru-bhakti or shastra-bhakti, matru-pitru bhakti etc. When it happens for the Supreme or the Highest then it is Ishwar-Bhakti.
Love, respect, security, faith are parts of this highest emotion.
VS: So does it mean that love, , respect or faith for anything other than God is also Bhakti
SS: Think about it based on what i just sent and you will find your answer there
GP: So now the question is, why do we need this bhakti?
SS: Actually the Lord alone is the one to whom one can surrender fully. Hence from a technical standpoint bhakti is applicable for the Lord alone. But in life we find many other altars of surrender and so we say its applicable there too
Let's go to -Why bhakti?
GP: Why bhakti? if there is no bhakti, I will not be able to look beyond myself and rise above my petty likes and dislikes. Bhakti helps me become selfless.
RP: Bhakti makes it very easy and provides the enthusiasm and energy to walk the path. Few things that Bhakti brings automatically - faith in The Lord, sense of being supported and cared for etc help a lot in overcoming self doubts and keeps us on the path - a great boon for the initial seeker who otherwise knows very little.
NP: Also I feel bmi integration is easier
VS: We need Bhakti because whenever we worship our Lord we try to imbibe the qualities of the Lord.  This applies also to people whom we love and respect.
We know that ideal can give me complete happiness
NP: Our actions and thoughts are usually selfless if we have Bhakti for a higher ideal
RP: In general we know that emotions are able to conjure up a lot of energy - anger for example. But if you want energy that lasts long for a life time - then intellectual understanding of the ideal + strong love towards it can provide us that. Both are required else the energy fades out. And we just saw both together is Bhakti.
SS: Wonderful. Keep it going
SR: When i am inspired and have selfless love for a higher ideal, my ego & self importance reduces
There is more purity in action
GP: We sometimes have this wrong notion that bhakti is inferior to karma or gyaana. That it is only for the beginner or the weak and emotional seeker. But this is completely wrong.
NP: Then like what Ramkumar said, even if we have can't understand certain things Bhakti will sail us through till we are ready to understand
GP: Gurudev was the perfect living example of bhakti. Karma and gyaana in one person.
NP: Yeah!
But is Bhakti permanent or do we have to nurture it regularly?
VS: Yes
SS: Has to be nurtured.
RP: If we say intellectual understanding of ideal + love is Bhakti. Then by the equation when understanding goes up Bhakti goes up. That results in more love and when you love more you want to know more. it is a self feeding infinite cycle. It is not that Bhakti is constant in the equation and when you get more knowledge you have to reduce love. We know that's not true for sure.
SR: 'Pure' bhakti elevates the mind. Gyana, the intellect. Both ways ultimately takes us to the same goal...yes, it has to be consistently & sincerely practiced
‎KG: I thimk reapect follows love and so bhakti has strong aspect of respect too. To attempt Karma yoga specifically #2, 3, 5, 8, 10 from Swamiji's list, very essential. For Surrender need Bhakti and Bhakti will materialise in Surrender.
1.Perform your obligatory duties diligently and cheerfully. Niyatam kuru karma tvam.
2.Dedicate the duties to a higher cause / God. Ishwaraarpitam
3.Keep your Vision High.
4.Reduce self – importance & self- projection through teamwork or Yagna-Spirit
5.Love the very work itself.
6. Calm – Before, During and After the action. Samatvam Yoga Uchyate.
7. Don’t insist on particular results only.
8. Accept the results cheerfully as His Prasad with Humility & Equanimity.
9. Don’t attach your worth to work.
10. Know that you are only an instrument and not the doer. Nimmita-maatam bhava.
----
Bhakti is born out of knowledge, since one needs 2 acknowledge of the HIGHER. But did Shabari know of Rama's greatness?
SS: Yes. Her guru matanga rishi had told her
Bhakti is required for shakti, shaanti, virakti(dispassion) and Mukti.
Su: Bhakti is imperative for the The ability to give up doership
If I have to act as the instrument of the Lord... I need to love Him unconditionally
Dilution of ego is easier at the altar of love

Upadesh Saar : Verse 3 (Day 2)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
Withdraw your grace from your mind.  It is the devil (rakshasa) who has, through its tapas,  invoked you and got your blessings - and it is now threatening to annihilate you!  Learn to destroy him quickly - hasten slowly.
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JV: Totally agree and it has received so much that it has become bhasmasur of my self and is threatening to burn me to ashes. Mostly I am succumbing to it.

NG: All in the same boat😳
But now we have a good boatman...thank you Swamiji🙏

AV: Yes thank you Swamiji and the group

SS: Beautiful quote sunitha. Kaivartakah keshavaha says Geeta Dhyaan Shloka. Krishna or the Lord is our boatman

VS: Yes Swamiji...

RP: Different topic and sorry for the distraction - ever wondered why is the universe with thousands of planets, stars , galaxies, animals , plants, so many multiple names and forms actually called as UNIverse? (Uni - not two not three not many-verse just UNI)

GP: There is also a theory among scientists (space scientists) about multi-verses
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JV: There are no limitations when the limitless is cooking a story :) Ram, there are multi universes  as well

SS: Nothing beats the understanding of vedanta that there is no creation - uni or multi. Why wonder if there is one snake or many snakes? 😜
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JV: Totally. 👍
‎
SS: If you had to enumerate 10 principles of Karma Yoga what would they be?

RP: 1. Work is dedicated to an higher ideal
2. Cheerful acceptance of results
3. Less or nil likes and dislikes while performing actions
4. Feeling of gratitude or higher presence propelling the action ( vs I doing all)
5. Focus on doing it right and cheerfully
6. Ideally tallies with swadharma
Umm
10. It is a good thing !!!

GP: 7. Karma is action. Karma yoga is in the attitude behind the action.
10 (addendum) : and it is a difficult thing! 😊
8. The objective behind karma-yoga is not self-improvement but self-purification.

SS: Great

RP: 9. Is followed in thought speech and action - ie integrated fashion

GP: 9. Working hard, doing social service, doing one's duties, being very efficient, achieving great success - none of this is karma yoga, if there is no attitude of surrender to a higher ideal/altar beyond oneself.
Yes, I agree with ram's point 9. Pls ignore my point 9.

RP: I think there can be more than 10. Multiverse!

SS: 1.Perform your obligatory duties diligently and cheerfully. Niyatam kuru karma tvam.
2.Dedicate the duties to a higher cause / God. Ishwaraarpitam
3.Keep your Vision High.
4.Reduce self – importance & self- projection through teamwork or Yagna-Spirit
5.Love the very work itself.
6. Calm – Before, During and After the action. Samatvam Yoga Uchyate.
7. Don’t insist on particular results only.
8. Accept the results cheerfully as His Prasad with Humility & Equanimity.
9. Don’t attach your worth to work.
10. Know that you are only an instrument and not the doer. Nimmita-maatam bhava.
Yes there can be more too

GP: Swamiji added 10 more! 😊

SS: Many are same points. I just tried to fill the missing links and put it in a sequence so that if we try practicing it in this order it would help rather trying to give up doership etc.

Su: The list is graded in difficulty.  Easy to tough
Start from the top....

RP: Mukhta Sangha samaacharan - don't remember the verse exactly - that's also a gem of a verse

SS: Thats the yagna spirit point. Yagnaarthaat karmanonyatra loko ayam karma-bandhanaha. Tadartham karma kaunteya mukta sangah samaachara. Geeta ch.3

Su: As I see it,  BMI integration is needed for karma yoga. Swamiji is it possible that someone is not ready for karma yoga,  hence there is some practice to prepare one for practice of karma yoga.

RP: Perfect Swamiji.

SS: Karma yoga itself will integrate us. Point 1 of doing duties can integrate us. We dont do our duties and engage in distractions or prohibited things. Thats disintegration.

RP: And there is another one on maam anusmara yudhyaca

Su: Right Swamiji,  true doing one's duties diligently itself needs tremendous integrity

SS: Tasmaat sarveshu kaleshu maam anusmara yudhya cha
Mayyarpita mano budhihi
Maam eve eshyasi asamshay
Geeta Chapter 8
Hence at all times remember ME and fight. Mind and intellect dedicated to ME you shall undoubtedly reach ME says the Lord.
Doing what one loves or swadharma can help to integrate. Thats a part of my duty to myself

RP: Oh I was looking in chapter 2 - but I feel there are gems of verses on k-yoga sprinkled across chapters
Or could be that I can only see Geeta as book of k-yoga!

SS: Its Sprinkled everywhere. Karma includes bhakti and gnana too. That way entire geeta is karma yoga

RP: Sukhe Dukhe same kritva labhalabhau jayajaou tato yudhyaya yujyasva naivam paapamsvyspsasi
The naivam papam refers to not accumulating vasanas Swamiji?

SS: Yes.
Work for the sake of work is tato yuddhaaya yujyasva. If we can do that without a trace of dependency on results. Then no new vasanas are created

RP: Thank you Swamiji !
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KG: Gr8 point Swamiji. Talking of examples then the japa tapa meditation (trials :)) are all in ways karma only...
#5 Love the work itself.
Do we need the attitude that the work that's come on my plate is his grace, his placing me at that place is good enough reason to accept it and give it a best shot...

RP: Yes Krishna - the work coming on your plate is not by chance. Remember when you act in karma yoga no NEW vasanas are created. How about existing ones? That's where performing your duties in the circumstances you are placed in ( results of past karma) help in removing existing vasanas.
The 1st stanza - results come by his grace - this is the grace - opportunity for us to act right and exhaust our current vasanas. We don't know our vasanas but he does - so provides you with the right opportunity to purge them- provided we act with the right spirit. Instead we assume more doership and more vasanas.

NP: Wow!!! Love this class. Thanks thanks thanks 🙏
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KG: So for vedantin every moment is an opportunity in itself! Thx Ramkumarji :)

Upadesh Saar : Verse 2 (Day 3) & Verse 3 (Day 1)

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
All the Shastras and Scriptures unanimously declare that our enemy is the Ego.  The sorrows and sighs belong to the ego-phantom. Sublimate the ego in constant Vichar.
Turn your gaze towards the Light within. If you cannot all of a sudden do so, then do the easier act of self-surrender. The taller you stand, the longer shall be your shadow. Bend double, the shadow is half. Sit down, the shadow is still smaller. Fall flat at His Lotus Feet, in love and surrender, and the shadow is no more.
Detach the mind from memories and hopes. Desireless is the state of perfection. Egolessness is the state of Godhood. Attain that Supreme Goal of life through knowledge and right living. Detach yourself from this shadow. Know thy Real Self. Kill the tyrant within you. It will bring Ramarajya in your bosoms.

SS: If actions slow down our evolution by binding us and yet we cant give up action, then whats the solution?

NG: Try keep finding a higher purpose for all actions that we are required to perform in the situation we are in.

SS: When does karma become karma yoga?

SR: Do the actions as selflessly as possible, with a seva bhaav, surrendering to the lord

SS: If i dont surrender to the Lord is it still karma yoga?

SR: No. Then i would be engaging in selfish, ego centric actions

NG: It can be if we are able to keep doing the actions needed in a sincere manner without getting swayed by our likes and dislikes
Surrender will be an easier route but may not work for all

GP: Even if I don't surrender to the lord, but if I can surrender the actions to higher ideal or a higher altar, beyond our own selves, then isn't that too karma yoga?

Su: Surrendering doership is tough right now,  but becoming more selfless where I don't always think of myself in relation to the results. Where Iam able to dilute my likes and dislikes.... isn't that also practicing karma yoga?

RP: In the cycle described yesterday - impressions-desires - thoughts - action - result- impression. The most easy to break appears to be action-result-impression part as all others are very subtle
Of the action-result-impression part, result is not under our control. Only action is
Can we do action such that we kind of ignore the result + impression part? Guess that's where karm yoga will come. Working without expectation if result

SR: Surrendering to a higher altar makes our actions less selfish no doubt. But surrendering to the highest purifies our mind, helps in karmaphalatyaga , & takes us that much along the spiritual path

RP: So focus is on performing the action and not press on result. This is easier when the desire-thought preceding the action is for an higher ideal.
So performing actions with ready and full acceptance of whatever the result is weakens the pressure of the enjoyer of the fruit of action.
Reduces impressions, consequently desires and thoughts and finally resulting in less pressure to act in the first place.

SS: Surrender to a Higher alter can purify the intentions and reduce doership but doership goes only when surrender is to the Lord. Thats when karma yoga is complete. Thats why the definition of karma says karma = action with BMI + intention + doership.
Will continue more tomorrow. You may please carry on

VS: Selfish actions and actions with strong doership feeling(pride of doing the action) will slow down my evolution.
I need to maintain a feeling that the actions as well as the results are also due to His power.
A constant reminder that He is acting through me.
Can we term successful completion of an action also as results? because that also creates anxiety and gives happiness or sorrow.
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KG: why to surrender is ok. But How to surrender is still a Q?

SS: Successful completion of an action is not anxiety for result. It is the tension of action
How to surrender? I must know my insignificance and the glory of the Lord and if i have love for the Lord, surrender happens. This is where understanding of ishwara and connecting to ishwara through a form is vital.

VS: So surrender to the Lord can help us overcome this anxiety also right
Because it does reduce

SS: Yes
Verse no.3 - ishwaraarpitam nechaya kritam. Chittashodhakam mukti-saadhakam.
Actions done as an offering to the Lord and not for self-importance purify the mind and are a means to liberation.
Karma = action.
Karma yoga = dedicated action.
What is NOT Karma-Yoga:
1. Merely doing one's duties
2. Mere efficiency in action
3. Mere social service
4. Working for long hours.

RP: One would have thought performing duties and social service qualifies as karma yoga.
But merely the action without the dedication does not make it a karma yoga is the key
However noble and even self less the action could be
The dedication and attitude of surrender is to be done in the mind. So if action is like a washing machine that could clean the mind (Chitta shodhakam) then the attitude of surrender is the soap. Without that the machine can run long hours but nothing gets cleaned, instead it gets more dirty.

SS: Nice analogy

NP: Wow!

NG: Nice one Ram 👍

Su: Karma yoga always gives the feeling that it's 'action'. But it's totally in the mind.  Very important to remember that.

SS: Yes karma yoga is an attitude not an action. Karma is action

RP: Nicely put Swamiji and makes it clear. Key word is it's attitude towards 'action'. Interesting to note that shying away from action also cannot be yoga. It's not that we can escape the ocean by avoiding to get in there. There is no "dry cleaning" at our levels,  dirt still remains and continues to attract more and only way to get rid of it is to act with the right attitude.

SS: We are already in the ocean. We can choose to sink (drown unaware of higher way) or try to swim (keep acting selfishly) and cross or take a boat(satsang and karma yoga) and go across.
Practice exercise: before and after action feel and say Ishwararpitam and dedicate it to the Lord. Poojya Gurudev used to say Krishnarpanam astu or Narayana Narayana or Krishna Krishna.

RP: Oh man! If I have to do that I have to clean up my actions first. Half the things I do - I cant dare say Ishwararpitam! But definitely a good exercise!

Su: So true Ramkumar!!

SS: Applies to all of us

NP: Hahahaha Ramkumar very true.
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KG: True. I have heard some term this practice as' madhu vidya'.... Didn't know remembrance of the Lord frequently will be so difficult to inculcate. Makes me realize acting has become so very unconscious.

VS: Agree ram anna. Thanks for the exercise Swamiji

Upadesh Saar : Verse 2 (Day 2)

SS: Summary of verse 2:
1. Action is an ocean because it strengthens doership, generates many thought and results being temporary, it leaves behind a craving to act again. It can never fulfil our basic need of Permanent Happiness.
2. Action can be done with the understanding that results cannot add or subtract anything from me. I am worthy irrespective of results.
3. Balance the time we give to actions and to knowledge.
Balance material and spiritual pursuits. Dont postpone spiritual pursuit.
Su: Thanks Swamiji!
NG: I am worthy irrespective of the results...what a powerful statement but so difficult to implement. Am so used to defining self worth wrt to roles/achievements that imagining a state or feeling worthy without those is almost impossible! And if applied to others also, it would be so much easier to operate from love and acceptance and without agitation!
Su: Actions cannot fulfill our basic needs for Permanent Actions... such a powerful sentence.  But if we hear this without the right background it will sound illogical to most
So true Nirupama....

NG: Sunitha - The quote that you posted was bang on! Don't postpone spiritual pursuit...start by starting to live a Divine Life
‎KG: ya!
Balance time.  How much dedicated time for spiritual pursuits? Like 15 mins scriptural study daily as start...mentioned by Swamiji.... This will vary from person to person but doesn't depend on what roles one is performing in the external world. Irrespective the stanza seems 2 convey the urgency.
Also the spiritual pursuits should cater both M & I.
VS: but I need to remind myself that I am worthy so my actions should also be worthy.
Hari om all n Swamiji. Thanks for making us feel worthy of ourselves. Someone told me long... each one of us is special and I am special too.
Yes and I agree to akka... Sunitha... the quote is so apt...

‎KG: So japa, bhajans, etc are also to be taken up and not just study. Please correct me.
VS: Yes covering all aspects of the personslity.

SS: Yes krishna
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KG: Is there anything we can do at this level on B?
‎Swamiji, till the complete integration is done and there's no need 2 specifically pursue spirituality, what I wanted 2 know is whether body can also be trained. But exercise, yoga cannot be spiritual tool, rt.
SS: Spirituality is not a way to look at certain things. Its a certain way to look at all things. Anything done at body level also can be spiritual. Eating, walking, yoga, exercise etc are also spiritual when done with the focus on purity and integration and not for praise or any selfish purpose.
Spiritual life is all-inclusive. Principles of spirituality when followed bring about the integration. We cant wait for integration to happen and then come to spiritual pursuits.
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KG: Ok.
RB: Swamiji. So we have to live every moment a spiritual life?
Is it just making a decision that I will live a spiritual life from now on OR is there a process to get to that level
Su: Since we all agree about the urgency to start living the spiritual life and Make Time to pursue it....
May be the Bombay and nearby setukaris can start by Making Time to attend the MB3 camp in Kolwan. 
The chyks and others have taken great effort to specially design this camp for the setukari group so that children can also participate.  I think we should encourage them by making time for the camp..
SS: Rishi its a decision to begin with. But mainly its a process to be alert of thoughts and desires and make them selfless and pure. For that the goal must be clear to us. At the moment we may or may not be able to identify with moksha as the goal. But integration of BMI, purity of mind, selflessness, giving love and service are the goals we can start working towards. Anything that helps me to achieve the above i must do and avoid anything that harms or distracts me from these.
RP: Swamiji the verse refers to action being like an ocean.  Understand the temp nature of results but the ocean reference suggests being trapped in some form of cycle. In other places we hear karm ki chakki type of words. What's the trap being referred to? Or does ocean refer to fact that there is just endless actions one can perform ?
Why can't we just get out of action? Is it habit ? Attachment ?
Su: I guess action with attachment to results is the problem. Action itself in the right spirit is ok
SS: Thats only a part of the problem sunitha
And part of the solution
Impressions-desire-thoughts-actions-results-impressions is the endless 'chakki' of karma. This cycle generates endless actions. Hence like an ocean its endless. Secondly one cant cross an ocean by swimming and reach the shores. Same way actions cannot help us to discover permanent happiness. Hence bhaja govindam says satsang is the boat needed to cross the ocean.
We cant get out of action because of sense of incompleteness. Till one does not discover permanent happiness as one's nature one will keep acting for happiness. Also our senses and mind are extroverted and attached to action. Hence to keep quiet is most difficult task
Sunitha, results create further impressions. When we drop insistence on results we only stop creating further impressions. Rest of the cycle is still there. Hence i said its only a part of the problem and part of the solution
‎KG: So its all the while said karma yoga alone cannot take one to the Goal. But it will definitely act as a good path to start with.
SS: Yes

This is the ignorance cycle. Earlier we had seen the knowledge cycle
VS: Swamiji... please pardon me if my question sounds objectionable... but this is troubling me.
Agree that we are in the ignorance cycle n not getting completeness or infinite happiness because of that.

‎JV: I have a serious doubt. How and why would self knowing whom there is no ignorance, becomes ignorant about self.

VS: What is the guarantee that going beyond this will give me completeness or infinite happiness? Am I going into blank nothingness...
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JV: The question is really bugging me.  Plus going by  jiva, ishwara, jagat theory, I, the jiva, don't have a chance to get out of the cycle as it is not mine ignorance. Only When the self gets rid of its avidyaa will the world vanish. Along with it the jiva.

SS: Ignorance of Self means i the jiva am ignorant of my true nature. Please see the ignorance cycle. When i become ignorant of my true nature then false identification with BMI starts and incompleteness arises, to fulfil which i act and im bound.
Why i became ignorant has no answer because ignorance is the cause of BMI. Hence it is called causal body. Intellect is only an effect of ignorance and why is an effect of intellect. Any answer is a hypothesis. Buddha said when a thorn pricks you will u ask why? How did it come here? Why is it sharp? Or will u just pluck it out?
Jiva by right knowledge and action can definitely end ignorance and awaken. So jiva has a choice all the time.
Vinod: question is valid.
1.We experience happiness whenever mind is calm. Is it nothingness?
2.Desirelessness is happiness is everyone's experience.
3.When identification with mind is transcended through contemplation on sat-chit-ananda one experiences supreme bliss.
Proofs are: all the realized masters, declaration of scriptures and logical thinking.
VS: Swamiji... isn't happiness itself a relative term
SS: So?
In a relative world everything is going to be relative

VS: I feel happy when I am calm... but I am also happy when I am excited about an materialistic pursuit...
SS: Thats why we are saying transcend the realm of change by rising above BMI and u will know the permanent.
VS: Is there something called ecstasy
SS: Excitement, pleasure, ecstasy, etc are at sensory levels. Are we talking of that level? No.
VS: Is it like saying I don't want to write the exam because I am not sure if I'll pass or fail.
‎JV: Not clear. All attempts to remove ignorance are going to be through BMI. "Why"-intellect is also a part of it. If I know the cause, it becomes easy to transcend.
Let's say the equipment is limited, in that case there is no attempt. E.g. Animal or plant. Not to undermine them as jiva. If my bmi is limited then there is no progress in knowing self.
Also, charts specifies that it starts with "ignorance of self". More important is how can self get ignorant about ones own self.
SS: Causation hunting works fine for objective science but it has limitations in subjective science. If we say cause of ignorance is x one will say whats its cause and it will go into an endless loop. Also what can be cause of ignorance? Presupposes that ignorance was not there before and then it got created. What was there before ignorance. Only two possibilities: nothing or knowledge. Ignorance cant come out of either. Ignorance is beginning-less and the ultimate cause of bondage
How can waker forget himself and become dreamer?
Vedanta at its highest level is saying Self is jnana-svarupa and can never become ignorant. You are that Self. Do i experience that? No. I experience finitude sorrow and so vedanta says that in that case ignorance is the cause.
An actor can definitely get totally identified with the role and forget his true identity.
‎JV: On the causation hunting, infact, if it wouldn't have been that approach, we woudnt have been contemplating at all. However, I do buy your point about endless loop as well. I think causation hunting stops at a point. When intellect stops and stumbles its limitations. When it can not comprehend at all. E.g. When you see a beautiful sunset or a gigantic mountain in front of you. You do transcend beyond. 
Regarding you explanation about knowledge and ignorance:
So there is nothing like ignorance in a way. As knowledge can never be ignorant. And I is always aware about itself. It is always constant in the world, in the dream and in the deep sleep. I never ever is diluted.
Still it baffles me the whole purpose of the world and its existence.
Actor never forgets who is. Its just that he sees no other option but to act.
I meant who he is.
SS: Actor example has limitations. Ignorance is absence of Knowledge. It exists as long as we have false identification. Just like when we are on earth then clouds appear to cover the sun. Though they cant actually cover. Again example has limitations
VS: So does that mean that causation hunting is only due to ignorance. When intellect is convinced that causation hunting is futile it meditates and abides in the self.
SS: Yes
VS: What are the limitations of not doing causation hunting... is it possible to force ourselves to stop doing it.
SS: Nothing can be forced in spirituality. Right Thinking and grace alone can lead us beyond causation. Not doing right thinking and ignoring causation keeps us in ignorance and tamas.
Su: Jignesh I think right now our mind and intellect are not subtle and powerful enough to even ask the right questions abt creation etc.  I was also stuck like this when we discussed this last week. Could not stop my questions and  my mind refused to accept these answers Finally after some thinking two things helped to settle my mind and it's questions. It works for me
1. Faith in Gurudev.  For me it works.  If Gurudev has said causation hunting does not work beyond a point,  then that's it.  When He says something I don't understand or agree with now... I will wait till I understand, becoz if He has said it, it's true. Then obsessive questioning stops.
2. I thought of the futility of this question, because other than tickling the intellect it is of no great value now.  Now even if my questions are valid,  I need to focus on basic things like getting my BMI integrated.  Instead of putting my energy in that,  why waste time now wondering about the theory of causation....
SS: Well said sunitha
VS: Agree Swamiji and Sunitha
‎JV: Sunitha, these questions are coming from complete faith that there is true knowledge beyond intellect. And also an extreme curiosity to experience lack of ignorance.
Sometimes I feel I am just a blink from it  and at times it feels no where in the sight.

Upadesh Saar : Verse 2 (Day 1)

VS: Hari Om

No class?

DM: Hariom

Going to a friends house to learn to bake

I dnt hv class every day

Oh I m so sorry

VS: :)

DM: So funny

N guess wat I was thinking of u n saw ur chat. So quickly replied. Sorry to all..

VS: Baking continues in the head

NP: No problem Deepa, as long As you send what you baked to everyone on the group

DM: Ha ha..

I'll send a photo.

But I wana share one thing. .

I was contemplating whether to use maida or wheat..maida makes cakes fluffy bt unhealthy wheat very healthy. . N wen I read the morning thought about garbage in garbage out I got my answer

NP: See Vedanta has a solution even for baking !!!

DM: :) :)

Yes for everything. .

Sometimes I choose to ignore; thats a different thing..

N the fact that I get my answers by applying it in my daily life..I m propelled to know more n apply n see how it helps me n thru me others..

SS: Summary of verse 1:

1. 1. By HIS command we get the results. Actions are not supreme. Actions are inert.
2. 2. Have faith in the existence of Ishwara and build a relationship with HIM.
   Visitor to master: have you seen God?
   Master: have you seen anything other than God?
3. Ishwara created the jiva and jagat as well as the laws that govern both. She does not control our individual thoughts and actions. As we sow, so we reap
4. Study the scriptures to know the laws. Daily 15min atleast.
5. The actions, the results, the laws, the jiva or doer of actions- none of these can do anything on their own. They depend on Ishwara who alone is supreme. Surrender to her.
6. Choose a form of the Lord that is dearest to you and love the Lord through that form. 10min atleast.
7. Karma = action done with BMI + intention + doership. Purpose of karma is to integrate BMI, make the intentions pure and selfless and reduce self-importance or doership.
8. As results come by HIS Grace learn to accept them as HIS prasad.
   Insistence+resistance  = sorrow.
   Acceptance + Independence = Happiness.

Verse no.2: in the vast ocean of actions, impermanent result is the cause of downfall and is a barrier to progress.

In the world action and temporary results are the cause of great achievements. Why is it said here that they are like an ocean and cause of downfall?

NG: Results lead to disturbances/ turbulence in the mind and re-inforces the ego. A favourable result leads to elation and then craving for more. And unfavourable result leads to dejection and depression. Then the mind is not available for seeking the permanent.

SS: Right. But is elation and depression not natural? What should be our response to the results if not these?
 GP: We know through our own first-hand experience that even after we achieve our goals, we aspire for more and we plunge into action all over again. It is endless and our lifetime seems inadequate to achieve everything that we would ideally like to. Its an ever-expanding ocean and it only keeps sucking us deeper and deeper into this endless pursuit of the fleeting and the temporary.

This is why it is compared to an ocean, and getting trapped in this ocean does not leave us any bandwidth for spiritual sadhana and progress.

 Su: Elation and depression are natural when we go about seeking pleasure the way we do.  But we dont realise that it's a bottomless pit. We keep looking for the next thing that will make is more happy than the previous one. 

Wont the response largely depend on the attitude with which we go after what we seek.

SS: Very true GPji. Can i have this view and still pursue my goals with enthusiasm and be successful? Is it not that escapists or unsuccessful people think this way?
 Su: if Iam convinced I want permanent happiness but have to live in this transactional world,  I will have a utility oriented approach to things around me. Where I don't get attached to them yet use them when needed.

Where I don't indulge in things when I know they may put me in cycle of desire gratification.  Or atleast be mindful when Iam doing it.

SS: So if i am successful, i should not rejoice?
 NP: When I identify myself with the result, whatever it might be, like I have achieved it or I have failed... Then the downfall arises.

If I surrender my actions and thereby the outcome to The Lord, it is easier. The mind is calmer

And one can progress on the spiritual path

 SR: Actions done with a strong sense of doership & attachment to results make us a puppet taking us from one extreme to another. We need to set goals, pursue enthusiastically. Do our best & accept whatever the results in a balanced way. Rejoice good ones but not go to extreme elation.

AND not extreme dejection for the next bad results

SS: Whats the difference between rejoicing and elation? If i have balance, will it not hold me back from enjoying thoroughly?

SR: Balance helps me remember its temporary..all an illusion after all. Enjoy what its worth with the realization its not permanent
 NG: Enjoy fully but understand the limitations of achievements/ acquisitions.  If we understand that we are actually seeking permanent happiness in all our actions which will not be available because of a material achievement or acquisition then we can fully enjoy the achievement but continue focus on the highest goal

At a gross level - aspire for the bigger car but do not expect it to give lasting happiness. Since it does not have the capacity to do so

VS: Swamiji to your earlier question.. our pursuit of actions for temporary results is endless. That's why it is an ocean.  Be it a great achievement or loss. There's bound to be waves of over-excitement or sorrow.  in either case the mind gets carried away by it. Thus never poised... and permanent happiness needs an equipoised mind. thus Temporary pursuits never takes us to that higher state but lower like a whirlpool.

SS: (thumbs up) to everyone who expressed their views for the clarity.

VS: What is enjoyment is a question here. even here enjoyment is temporary.  I want to be in a state where I enjoy always. I don't need a reason to enjoy and be happy.

‎KG: Swamiji, I think the context of the sloka is a Jiva for whom the cycle of samsara is continuous or endless. Ocean is a good example 2 simulate vastness. Since actions lead 2 more actions. (Only intelligent actions can help slow/stop the cycle. Where rejoicing with out elating ego is seen...).

GP: To answer your question swamiji, it is possible to have this view and still pursue my goals enthusiastically. It requires that shift in attitude, which you discussed earlier. In fact, our wisdom is in understanding this in our lives and using our pursuits also

VS: Swamiji I still have a doubt on the earlier portion can I ask

GP: Our material pursuits also to progress spiritually by developing this outlook and attitude in all our achievements.
 VS: Bhaiya... how to develop this enthusiasm... I am so used to be inspired by a material goal.

Now that I know these materialistic goals are not going to give me eternal happiness

But only lead me to a downfall

GP: Isn't it then like the 2 wings of a plane (our material and spiritual wings) which help us soar? So we enjoy our material achievements too and use them at the same time for our spiritual evolution. The regular sadhana and satsang helps me stay grounded in this outlook towards life. I constantly and keenly keep checking to make sure I am progressing on my spiritual path.
Vinod, I think the way to look at this is that the material achievements lead to our downfall if we get blinded by them and keep chasing them looking for permanent happiness in them.

But the same material pursuits can actually help us grow spiritually too, if we have this right perspective and use these material pursuits and achievements lifting ourselves. I believe that is possible.

There are so many successful people in our mission who are great role models for us in this regard.

VS: Thinking...

SS: Practice of the day: go through all experiences with the attitude - even this will pass...  Keep the mind in balance yet experience life fully.

VS: Thanks a lot bhaiya...😊... I need to contemplate more

SS: Last verse of the geeta furthers the point about the 2 wings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vQw0mmcU64. Watch this video of Poojya Gurudev
 VS: Ok Swamiji

I am thinking every action needs a force. For that the result should be luring enough to create that urgency and force.

I believe as bhaiya said this will come with Satsang and Sadhana. .

SS: Serving others, inspiration of a higher ideal, purity of mind are various ways to invoke the force and work without being attached to the result
 SM: "Football World Cup Special"

Be a player who runs for the Goal & not a referee who looks for the Fault..!!

VS: sorry I couldn't resist my question.  On one hand verse says action is inert and not greater.  All fruits are given by the Lord himself(since he is the doer)... then how does the logic hold good... As you sow so you reap.
 GP: It holds good. If you sow a mango the lord will give you mangoes. We perform the action based on our desires and aspirations. The fruits of our actions come to us because of the lord.

But we say these actions are inert because these actions will not give us the permanent happiness that we seek. These actions only give us results that are limited and temporary in nature.

VS: Which means there is some contribution of the action... why then the term inert

GP: Ishwara is not the doer of our individual thoughts and actions.
 SS: Action is called inert because:

A. A sentient doer is required for it. It cannot happen on its own.

B. its not capable of giving results on its own. If it was, then doers are not necessary

C. The results of action are not governed by action but by laws which affect action, doer and results.

Contribution of action is not denied by the verse. It negates the supremacy which we give to actions and in the process we start defining ourselves based on actions and also we forget the Lord totally from whom we get the power to act

We think our work defines our worth. Vedanta says you are worthy no matter what work you do

Knowing this and being secure one can bring out the best in one's actions because the stress of proving myself, getting applause and being successful to feel happy is not there

AV: Beautiful, Swamiji....a key that opens up and exposes the load that we carry unnecessarily.....
 VS: Sorry again 😖

Ishwara is not the doer of our individual thoughts and actions.

AND

A sentient doer is required

sound complicated...

SS: Vinod. Its simple. You are the sentient doer deriving power from ishwara to think feel and act.
 VS: Sorry contradictory

I'm different from Ishwara?

 GP: The waker is not the doer of the actions performed by the dreamer. But the waker is needed without which the dreamer cannot exist, nor can do actions.

You're as different from ishwara as the dreamer is from the waker.

 VS: Or is the word inert used as a hyperbole here

To show exaggeration

Just to give importance to the governing body

 GP: Or the individual creature in the tapestry is different from the cloth on which the whole scenery has been woven.

Our body is inert without the life-principle shining through it

SS: If u identify from body level u r different from ishwara and think you are doer. From Self standpoint you and ishwara are one.

VS: So Aham Brahmasmi is not Aham Ishwarasmi
Got it Swamiji...
 SS: Action needs either a jeeva or i to be karta or ishwara to be karta. Choice is who do we think is karta. If im karta then im bound. If i surrender kartabhav and say it happens through his grace im liberated

Obviously not

How can wave be ocean?

Water in wave and ocean is the same though. Water is brahman. Ocean is ishwara. Wave is jeev

VS: Right

SS: Go back to definitions and basics when in doubt and spend some time in thinking.
 ‎JV: Water alone is real, rest are all concepts.

This sounds like software. It is just concepts.

There is no physical reality.

Yet we believe its real and interact with it. The whole world interacts with it. Even inert objects.

SS: 0 and 1 is real in computers. Rest all are appearances of these.

GP: Superb comparison swamiji! 😊

VS: Thanks a lot Swamiji and everyone