KG: The belief on the summary provided by GPji is there. But the why? Question is always troubling. And almost every time the response 2 it is that the question itself is wrong considering say the snake-rope example where the snake is never created. In that way the entire unfoldment mentioned is just a theory? But the interesting part is it is being experienced... Can the question be 'why this illusion at all?' I am not able to catch the point that the question is invalid.
Do align me if I have digressed.
RP: A small child asked her mother "where was I during yours and daddy's wedding". The mother sweetly gave some reply to pacify the child. Now to search for level of accuracy in her reply is foolish. Similarly we ask why did Brahman create the world and then we search for accuracy of the answer.
Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
The ugliness or beauty of the tongue is ordered by the personality behind it. A shattered entity will seek a self-gratification in malicious scandal -mongering and the soft fleshy tongue can often become more powerful than the most destructive missiles.
A seeker who is trying to reach a fuller and a more exhaustive self - expression should develop such an inward harmony that his speech should echo the fragrance of his soul.
Speech is powerful vehicle in man and it reflects the intellectual calibre, the mental discipline and the physical self-control of the speaker. Unless it is well formed in all these levels, his words will have no force.... no magic about them.
RP: When the child grows the question dissolves. Similarly when we get to know true nature of Brahman our questions will dissolve. If the child keeps asking why and how the mother probably will say go and ask you dad! In our case the mahatmas go silent.
So if we have to ask let's ask about nature of Brahman and understand that. Now there are a few things that are not considered as pramaan in the search for truth, our experience for example. So If we feel all the world is too good to be an illusion - think of the time you asked that qn to your mom. Your question was not fake but based on your innocent experience at that time. The experience at that point in time or for that matter now cannot be taken as pramaan.
KG: Ramkumarji, this pacifies my childish thurst for the unnecessary struggle 2 get the answer :)
If I now look at it, better concentrate on Brahman. Hari om!
GP: I know that the question 'why did Brahman create the world' is not valid Ram. From the standpoint of Brahman there is no creation.
I even understand that the world is a creation and the key is to focus on the true nature of brahman
AV: I always think of as asking Picasso or monnet why did you paint? Or why did Shakespear ever wrote?
creative expression of an artist
GP: Monet and Shakespeare had motive.
AV: Like?
DM: My sense is that they accessed the silence within n the art came flowing thru them into masterpieces of art which the world acknowledged.
GP: That's we all like to believe. Most of the renowned artists had troubled pasts and had a very competitive streak.
And an artist, when he or she creates, there is 'reality' in the object created.
But in the case of Brahman, the creation is an illusion, assumed to be real by the jeeva. Brahman has not undergone any change, and the jeeva actually doesn't exist.
AV: A creator creates. A painter paints. A writer writes.
It's a wonderful illusion complete with intricate details
GP: But we do say that it is the power of maya (which is brahman's power) which has projected the creation. And within the context of creation, the individual jeeva wonders why creation was caused and what is the ultimate cause and all. (much like the child asking the parents about his absence in the wedding album)
Anjali, if an artist creates or a writer writes, and if I'm not interested in any of that, and it doesn't affect me, I would not wonder if there is a reason for the artist's creation or if it is the expression of the divine through the artist or whatever.
But here, I'm very much part of the 'creation', I am an affected party, and I cannot stand apart and not have questions and not enquire.
AV: enquiry should be what's my part in this creation
The reality is that creation/illusion exist
RP: I think we have to examine how we are using the term Maya. We are saying Brahman created the world using power of maya, Maya is referred to as ignorance or veil etc. neither can be used to create anything real! We know illusions are plenty when we are ignorant. (Ask the guy who sells you those finance schemes! )
GP: No, the reality is that creation/illusion doesn't exist (from the perspective of brahman) much like a dream doesn't exist from the perspective of a dreamer
True ram, but if you take the example of the child asking parents - the child asks an innocent question. But the answer is not that the child doesn't exist or is an illusion today. Later as the child grows he understands the absurdity of his question, but that realisation doesn't negate his own existence. And he also understands the 'reason' behind his own creation/existance.
RP: Correct - I think the major battles in our heads is - no way this world is illusion and no way I am an illusion.
Then We have to understand what's called as illusion - as per definitions.
Even Shruti says we are real - except it says tat twam asi. But for us we are our limited beings! That should tell us what is called illusion
AV: It's like waves in the sea
RP: If the limited I is illusion then everything that makes me think I am limited is to be questioned
GP: The question was not about illusion. The definition of illusion was clarified in our earlier discussions.
The question is, why did the limited illusory world come up in the first place?
Much as, why did the waker project a dream world?
I know from the waker's perspective, the dream is an illusion.
RP: Think there is no answer to this. There was no first place or first time. Jeev and Atman both are beginningless but atman is also endless.
Many theories are there - Brahman decided to become many - there are some shlokas like that. Even if if became many it did not become different or limited. But we think we are both different and limited. That's the illusion we carry
GP: That's because we identify with our bmi and the oet and we feel we are limited, like the actor who forgets he is only playing the role of a beggar and believes he is poor
RP: Exactly! The small child still has not fully identified with his bmi and oet so he truly thinks he was ever present! Hence the qn where was I in the wedding album
Who was more knowledgeable the mother or kid?
GP: This example has severe limitations
Try tell the mother that the child is an illusion
RP: Sure does!
GP: And the mother and child are 2 distinct entities having a dialogue
The dreamer and the waker cannot co-exist, they cannot have a dialog. They are actually the 'same'
Su: I agree with GP. Iam told you are identify with the BMI and OET makes the world real for you. You don't know what is real you. So stop identifying with these instruments and then go thru the struggle of doing all that. Then what be told all this was illusion! Why go thru the entire circle only to reach the point where I started....why start at all.
I think this is a huge stumbling block for most...
From the theory point of view I understand, but 'I' cannot understand and cannot relate. Right now this 'I'is very real to me. So I can intellectually acknowledged a theory that does not convince me right now so that I can move ahead... but...
SD: But Sunitha its again your mind playing tricks on you. There is no cycle.
I think even intellectually understanding this is a big step. The next step would be to slowly practically start applying this knowledge
But going back to Swamiji's question of Is there a God? I think all of us agree that there is
RP: Sunita - we have to learn new methods of overcoming. One of the most stressed factors in thus study is that we study systematically - kram se. But we jump all over from Jeev to maya to Brahman and think why start at all! Part of the problem with chyks
GP: Sorry ram. I don't agree.
The problem is not with 'chyks', the problem is with me. My mind.
RP: Also go back to how we learnt the basics when we were kids. All of us were taught to say I am a boy or I am a girl. We happily said that a full year before we understood what boy or girl meant
SD: Also when we ask questions like ' why and when' regarding creation it means that there was a purpose and a kind of dependency. Why would the infinite be interested in this?
GP: And why do you feel this is not systematic or not helping? I think all these questions help shake us up. We think we are clear and we understand everything. I know I'm not.
SD: Yes I agree with GP. All the mind having fun
The more doubts I have, the more I question and the more I reach that much closer to the truth
GP: And then at the end of all the gymnastics and the chaos, swamiji comes and helps bring in clarity. And it's superb to repeatedly keep having this satsang. Hopefully I will be clearer by the end of this text than I was before 😊
RP: If we insisted that we understand what boy or girl means at that age before we agree to say I am a boy - it won't move anywhere. Now we are saying unless we understand everything of Brahman we won't agree We are Brahman .
Agree GP but systematic study is not something I am saying - that's how it is stressed.
GP: And I'm saying this too is systematic study.
In fact in my case, thanks to this, there is some study. 😄
RP: Lol
Same here
SD: Yes seriously I was totally rusted. Now feel a teensy bit oiled😌
RP: Yup! Got to sleep now. Otherwise the waker will ask why I could not hear the alarm!
GP: Gnite! Hari om!
RP: Hari Om!
JV: When "I" is not there, there is only supreme Consciousness. We all are aware of this without doubt. "I" has to go through the ordeals of life and cannot escape the responsibilities. we need to be clear about what is sought? Is "I" seeking the end of ordeal, is "I" seeking happiness? "I" can function only within its own realm. It can seek things in its own world. Thus when it is seeking permanent happiness it tries to end responsibilities. However, that doesn't solve the problem. The idea is to dissolve this "I". This is done by selfless activities, sadhana's, fasts, continuous contemplation and extreme faith and perseverance! Wait with patience that one day "I" will dissolve.
VS: Hari Om all! Enjoyed the lovely conversations. Ok... I am not convinced about Brahman... or the reason for the creation... but for a moment if I step back silently and observe... ain't I different from the BMI... and isn't the silent observation only because I have detached myself from the world,?
I think somewhere down the line... I know n understand the fact of illusion, , creation and brahman. But I just don't want to do it.
This is specific to me.
So is it a problem of willingness
Like I don't like to study for exams
Regarding the world... its an imaginary game of gi joe or house house or like some one said acting
I identify n get lost with the role
And so is the reason for any conflict with O, E or T
BV: Vinod.....not just lost...but also enjoy it. If the activity or experience is not liked....then ways and means of ending it is contemplated. While we discuss these principles ...the thirst to end the present state or to grow out of it is required.....if the teenager refuses to let go of the cradle saying he is enjoying it, he cannot experience the joys of boyhood.
VS: Agree Bharat. Yes...
Looks like we need to remind ourselves like 2nd chapter of Art of Man Making... WHY THE URGENCY
SS: Very happy about the discussions on this group after 2-3 days of silence.
VS: Yes Swamiji
Swamiji... since everything is illusion anyway... is there any point pondering on why the creation
N since everything is Illusion... what is the need for a Lord.
SS: Causation-hunting is the preoccupation of the intellect said Poojya Gurudev. Thats how we have made all the progress. When we apply the same to creation and try to find out why creation?, We have to understand different levels at which vedanta deals with the question.
Level 1: it gives different explanations about the purpose of creation. Eg. One Truth decided to become many or to entertain itself or to manifest its infinite potential etc. Many explanations are there. Now this is said to someone who needs reasoning. There is no way to prove which is right. when Gurudev was asked why creation? He said - i dont know. Ask the creator. How to reach the creator? That i can tell you.
Level 2: one who has gone deeper into vedanta AND purified the mind through Sadhana is told that the question itself is wrong because it has many assumptions like a)creation is real. b) Someone else created it who is different from me and im suffering in HIS creation c) intellect and purpose has to be there behind the creation etc. Any answer given to the question is only a dissatisfactory attempt to explain a logical AND practical impossibility like rope producing the snake. So dont search answers to purpose of creation but enquire into what is the REAL substratum of the illusory creation. This is called transcending intellect or logic using intellect and logic. Devotion to Guru or Scriptures or Reality are needed to make this happen
Level 3: when one enquires into the substratum then one finds that the questioner dissolves in complete surrender. One has arrived at intuitive experience of Reality. Creation creator and creature merge. All efforts stop.
SS: As long as illusion appears real one has to enquire vinod. Also, if illusion is there, substratum has to be there. Hence the need of the Lord because creation is there - illusory or assumed as 'real'
NG: Wow - that was beautiful Swamiji. Esp. Gurudev's answer.
SS: Truly no one to match Gurudev! 🙏
Our problem is we keep shifting levels
VS: So when (suppose) I realise... can I also say there's no God
SS: Intellectual stamina is necessary for systematic enquiry. Swami Vidyaranya says Vichaaram na sahate maayaa. Maya cannot bear Enquiry. Consistent enquiry and sadhana lead us to systematic convictions and we can rise in the levels. Alas we drop the enquiry midway or jump levels
For a realized master there is no God distinct from Self or Brahman. Jiva jagat and jagadeeshwara are seen as Brahman only
BV: In many of the answers thatRamana Maharishi gives to questions ....., he has a standard reply....who is the feeler/thinker/sad one/insulted one etc. etc....he prods the seeker to break the illusion time and again... I think this is why we need the lord....as Swamiji said....
separate substratum from illusion.
SD: In a way Swamiji aren't we all creators as everything around is is because of our identification. Gurudev was so right. We have to question ourselves
SS: For level 2 to happen to us we need the 9 qualifications of vedanta beginning from viveka and ending in mumukshutvam. Till viveka is not strong creation will appear real and questions will be intellectual only and same questions will keep arising. Satsang and manan strengthen viveka
GP: I guess in our case it is 'completely ensconced in maaya, we do not have the stamina for sustained enquiry'. 😄
SS: Yes swapna. We are creators of samsaar(our inner world). Jagat(so called external world) is created by the Lord. Enquriy into the nature if both is essential. Just one of them wont do
Tat tvam asi is to point out unity of jiva and ishwara. Many seekers do only enquiry into one and so dont understand properly.
SD: Yes. Slowly getting it now
VS: Thanks for the lovely explanation Swamiji
SS: Can we move on or anything more to discuss on this?
VS: So we continue the intellectual enquiry. Find the creator to ask why Your unexplainable creation?
Continue this enquiry with devotion to Guru or Lord... until we are convinced that everything gets merged into one.
SS: Yes
VS: 🙏Swamiji
But I must admit I'm still utterly confused 😞
All I understand is I must continue to enquire... invoking His Grace
BV: Don't find the creator to ask him questions .....
find him to discover your true nature...
VS: Yes...
SS: Ego wants answers to questions and feels satisfied. it sustains itself in the illusion of purpose and its fulfilment. When vedanta questions the ego's existence and reality it gives to creation, ego is jolted and struggles hard to preserve itself through duty, purpose, service, making a difference etc. Like the camphor struggles to keep the flame on in the last few moments before extinguishing itself. One who can see this clearly lets go of everything that ego wants to hold on. Thats why it is said tyaaga is the only way. We have to drop the security of our beliefs. Thats the price we pay to know the Truth.
Purpose has relevance in the roles we play and helps us to be focussed and single-pointed so that when we do vedantic enquiry with such a single-pointed mind we can transcend it and the need of purpose.
We were on the first verse of upadesha saar and were enquiring into the existence of the Lord. Anything that is accepted by all the three - shruti(scriptures) yukti(logic) and anubhuti(experience) is considered valid in vedanta.
We apply this to the existence of the Lord. Shruti has declared that Lord is and as Brahman it is the Changeless substratum of the world and as Ishwara- the creator sustainer and destroyer of the world. Yukti or logic says if there is an effect there has to be a cause. Creation cannot come out of nothing. Anubhooti says if there is water in the tap it proves existence of the ocean. The very fact that i exist as an individual means there has to be a Totality. When i become unmanifest in deepsleep there is no creation and creator. Hence from all standpoints the Lord exists.
Nature of that Lord is consciousness, compassion, omniscience, omnipotent and omnipresent. Now the question is what is the relationship of Ishwara to the jagat or creation and to jiva or individual? Does he control everything? Why should we surrender to HIM?
These questions we can think on because the verse says that results come by His command.
BV: When we read "At every breath a teaching"...we note that Gurudev often reiterated that the plan was sent to him by the proprietor. But there are also incidents where Gurudev exhibited something resembling an individuality. In one instance, he told a lady hankering gurudev to face east while lighting ,the lamp as "The direction i stand and face is the 'east' ". So basically where is it individual will and where is it the proprietor's? Can someone please throw some light?
SS: Sunitha u can answer bharath. U had the same question which got answered in the discussions held earlier.
Su: We identified with the BMI and OET think of our effort and cosmic grace as two different things. From the perspective of the Brahman my effort is also His Grace. But right now due to the ego we don't understand this. So the technique is to selflessly work and dedicate all the work at His feet and reduce the ego. When the ego is diluted the he understands that his effort and His will/effort was the same.
Am I right Swamiji.
SS: Yes
Gurudev at all times identified with HIM. He may be appearing to show individuality or surrender at different times as per situation, person's level etc.
GP: In fact when gurudev made that statement to that lady it was also a great lesson in vedanta. That time and space (incl directions) are relevant only in the realm of the bmi. But from the ultimate standpoint there is no time and space - no east or west.
Isn't it swamiji?
SS: True
Understanding the state of Jivanmukti itself is difficult. To understand the 'actions' of a Jivanmukta is even more difficult because it is action amidst actionlessness.
VS: Swamiji isn't this explanation somwat similar to the first stanza
GP: And the concept of 'grace' must be relevant from the perspective of 'ishwara' and not from the perspective of Brahman. Isn't that right?
SS: No vinod
SS: Yes GPji
Actually from perspective of Jiva Grace is needed. Hence from ishwara's perspective it is relevant
Coming back to our question: what is the relationship of ishwara with jagat and jeeva?
BV: Why GP? Is it bcoz grace has to come from somewhere higher.....whereas when we talk of brahman, there are no levels ....all is one whole?
Su: Yes, GP got your point. Grace is more relevant from Ishwara point of view.
GP: Yes bharat, from the standpoint of Brahman there is no creation. But the individual jeeva needs the grace of the lord (ishwara) in various ways.
Swamiji, our individual mind creates our individual world. And the total mind (ishwara) projects (creates) the total world of oet (jagat).
Isn't that true?
SS: Yes true
RP: Jagat : everything that is observed and experienced. Includes outer and inner worlds
Jiva: the individual identity or ego whose existence is due to the identification with bmi
Ishwara: creator , sustainer and destroyer of the jagat.
So relationship would be - jagat is the field of experiences, Jeev is the experiencer and Ishwara is The Lord of the universe
Hope I got it right
SS: Yes ramkumarji. This is fine. What we have to know is how does ishwara relate to jagat. Does he control it fully? This is in context to first line of the verse which says by His command results come.
GP: Can the lord make a mango tree produce oranges?
SS: Why not?
GP: Then it means that iswara control the jagat fully.
Including making an elephant fly?
I would have thought that he has created everything and also the laws behind everything, and in that sense controls everything.
But all of creation largely operates within those laws.
And so if I plant a mango seed, and pray to the lord to give me oranges, then it would be foolish of me to blame the lord when the tree still produces mangoes!
And why would the lord want a mango tree to produce oranges?
Unless he was suddenly in the mood for some oranges! 😜
SS: Exceptions dont negate rules but prove them.
GP: True
SS: Creator definitely relates to creation through laws but the laws cant bind the creator
GP: So to answer your question swamiji, ishwara fully controls the jagat.
SS: We have no freedom then?
GP: I could have planted a mango seed and taken all care to nurture, but that doesn't necessarily mean the tree will produce mangoes. In a sense it is in ishwara's control and I need his grace to get the mangoes.
I have the freedom to choose between a mango seed or an orange seed. Isn't it?
And I have to put in the effort also
NG: Ishwara controls jeeva also?
BV: Is it also that even the knowledge of difference between a mango and orange seed is a result of grace? Very fact that jagat is operating should be the grace of ishwara?
Su: If we go back to saying Brahman is cotton, ishwara the thread, jagat the cloth and jeeva the embroidery design. Then jagat is macro form of ishwara and jeeva micro
BV: Jeeva is just iswara in individual form right?
GP: But does ishwara control the jeeva?
Su: No ishwara controls Maya and creates.
GP: So does that mean ishwara does not control jagat?
But we say ishwara creates, sustains and destroys, right?
If that isn't controlling, what is?
Su: If Iam limited version of ishwara, then the question of control ?
GP: And if the jeeva is part of the jagat, then by that logic, the jeeva is also controlled by ishwara?
Do I have control over my heartbeat? Or is that controlled by ishwara? His grace?
But what about my mind and it's thoughts? As far as my mind goes, I can tell you, ishwara has absolutely no control over the riot that goes on in there! 😄
RP: So if I have infinite powers - I can control in few styles -
Whims and Fancy, abide by Rules and regulation
Su: I always thought of jagat and jeeva as something that ishwara had transformed into to create. But since we are identifying with the BMI and OET we see ourselves as separate. So from individual point of view there is ishwara controlling jeeva.
Isn't the creator and His laws the same?
I mean not literally...
RP: Logical to say rules and regulation - but it is compassion based - apply the rule to help and if required bend as well to help
Compassion around what is the final goal and ultimate good rather than get me few more dollars type
SD: But Sunitha like GP said, do we have control over heartbeat? So there is something which has a hold on us
Su: I think I have read somewhere Gurudev saying that at a larger level, the direction life takes is decided. But on a daily, moment to moment level we have the freedom to choose.
But who decided that direction? Me right? With my past actions...
GP: Yes
RP: The method of his control is by the magic word Dharma. The sea and the stars all stays within its dharma though they have enough power to blow up the world as we know it.
Su: So they are following a law.
RP: Similarly the heart's dharma is to beat - and we are good as long as it does that. If it violates - either faster or slower - we have a problem
SD: Because of my past action I am in present situation. My life where I am born is all preordained. But it is up to me to decide where I go from here.
RP: Correct .
SD: So me as an individual(jeeva) identifies with bmi and lives in oet . So on the bmi level there is something that controls me. All I can do is take care of my body, try and control the mind and train the intellect.
So this control that Ishwara has and destiny or prarabdha, is it the same?
By my above understanding, it is and then we play the blame game with God
BV: I think prarabda and purushartha are also part of dharma....otherwise there would be chaos....an action has to give result.. so ultimately ishwara only controls. This is an indirect method (Indirect Tax). Once we go beyond Jeeva & Jagat, there is no Karma. There is selfless action. No accumulation....my understanding is this. Swamiji, please correct me if i am wrong...
SS: Ishwara creates and along with creation also has made laws which operate in this creation defining the nature of a thing and its powers and limits. Ramkumarji referred to it as dharma. Having created the laws ishwara does not interfere. He only ensures laws function properly. Except human being everyone else lives by instinct. He gave freedom of thinking and selfawareness to humans to choose their actions. Results will come according to the laws he made externally and internally. Internal laws are values and laws of karma etc. He does not interfere in our thinking but his laws function and give results. Hence it is said by His will we get results and lets accept it as His Prasad.
The laws function so precisely that we forget the lawmaker and think that these laws are supreme. Like the scientists who think Creation functions on autopilot due to laws of nature. or we think our actions invoking these laws are supreme and so results we get due to our actions and we become arrogant like the ascetics.
Now and then the Lord may decide to change the law or show some exception. We call that miracle
The verse is to tell us that none of the following are supreme:
A. The laws or Nature
B. the actions because actions get us everything.
C. The doer of actions because im the doer and enjoyer and all depends on me the performer
D. Results because they are what drive us to act.
Trapped in either of these we forget the Lord. Think about it. Is it not our situation? We think of any or all of the above as more powerful and so dont turn to the Lord.
Ja: True also think the decision s we take to be made by us and we are the master
But it is not so ,
JV: Thank you Swatmanadji. its clear now. Noose of the concepts are too tight. Not willing to let go off the charms and insecure of it, want to build walls around to protect it. Not willing to let go of all of it veils us from the lord.
On a lighter vein, and if I should refrain from such in between digression, please message me on a separate note. Here goes the next msg
Neither there is sound nor silence.
Neither there is light nor darkness.
There is nothing. Yet it is complete.
There are no moments. Time is an unknown entity.
This is still and there are no movements, yet seems to be most dynamic.
I know about this only when I am not there.
Relax, I am just talking about deep sleep.
Now we can get back to original topic
VS: Ishwara creates the Jagat and the Jeeva. The Jeeva creates one's own Jagat based on its association with the the original Jagat. So there are multiple projections by multiple Jeevas on the main projection.
SS: Yes.
VS: Swamiji has Ishwara created the Jagat for the following reasons;:-
1. To show us what Dharma is... and that we need to follow the same
2. That we need to let the world be the way it is
3. We need to perceive the world the same way as He has projected it.
4. If we are able to do that we can control everything or reach him
Or that He has already projected everything perfectly n I don't hv any job.
SS: U can give a million more reasons..... Go back to what was said about different levels of handling why creation? and try to understand.
Nisha swasti. 😴
VS: Yes I remember that
Shubh ratri Swamiji
Do align me if I have digressed.
RP: A small child asked her mother "where was I during yours and daddy's wedding". The mother sweetly gave some reply to pacify the child. Now to search for level of accuracy in her reply is foolish. Similarly we ask why did Brahman create the world and then we search for accuracy of the answer.
Su: Gurudev's thought for the day:
The ugliness or beauty of the tongue is ordered by the personality behind it. A shattered entity will seek a self-gratification in malicious scandal -mongering and the soft fleshy tongue can often become more powerful than the most destructive missiles.
A seeker who is trying to reach a fuller and a more exhaustive self - expression should develop such an inward harmony that his speech should echo the fragrance of his soul.
Speech is powerful vehicle in man and it reflects the intellectual calibre, the mental discipline and the physical self-control of the speaker. Unless it is well formed in all these levels, his words will have no force.... no magic about them.
RP: When the child grows the question dissolves. Similarly when we get to know true nature of Brahman our questions will dissolve. If the child keeps asking why and how the mother probably will say go and ask you dad! In our case the mahatmas go silent.
So if we have to ask let's ask about nature of Brahman and understand that. Now there are a few things that are not considered as pramaan in the search for truth, our experience for example. So If we feel all the world is too good to be an illusion - think of the time you asked that qn to your mom. Your question was not fake but based on your innocent experience at that time. The experience at that point in time or for that matter now cannot be taken as pramaan.
KG: Ramkumarji, this pacifies my childish thurst for the unnecessary struggle 2 get the answer :)
If I now look at it, better concentrate on Brahman. Hari om!
GP: I know that the question 'why did Brahman create the world' is not valid Ram. From the standpoint of Brahman there is no creation.
I even understand that the world is a creation and the key is to focus on the true nature of brahman
AV: I always think of as asking Picasso or monnet why did you paint? Or why did Shakespear ever wrote?
creative expression of an artist
GP: Monet and Shakespeare had motive.
AV: Like?
DM: My sense is that they accessed the silence within n the art came flowing thru them into masterpieces of art which the world acknowledged.
GP: That's we all like to believe. Most of the renowned artists had troubled pasts and had a very competitive streak.
And an artist, when he or she creates, there is 'reality' in the object created.
But in the case of Brahman, the creation is an illusion, assumed to be real by the jeeva. Brahman has not undergone any change, and the jeeva actually doesn't exist.
AV: A creator creates. A painter paints. A writer writes.
It's a wonderful illusion complete with intricate details
GP: But we do say that it is the power of maya (which is brahman's power) which has projected the creation. And within the context of creation, the individual jeeva wonders why creation was caused and what is the ultimate cause and all. (much like the child asking the parents about his absence in the wedding album)
Anjali, if an artist creates or a writer writes, and if I'm not interested in any of that, and it doesn't affect me, I would not wonder if there is a reason for the artist's creation or if it is the expression of the divine through the artist or whatever.
But here, I'm very much part of the 'creation', I am an affected party, and I cannot stand apart and not have questions and not enquire.
AV: enquiry should be what's my part in this creation
The reality is that creation/illusion exist
RP: I think we have to examine how we are using the term Maya. We are saying Brahman created the world using power of maya, Maya is referred to as ignorance or veil etc. neither can be used to create anything real! We know illusions are plenty when we are ignorant. (Ask the guy who sells you those finance schemes! )
GP: No, the reality is that creation/illusion doesn't exist (from the perspective of brahman) much like a dream doesn't exist from the perspective of a dreamer
True ram, but if you take the example of the child asking parents - the child asks an innocent question. But the answer is not that the child doesn't exist or is an illusion today. Later as the child grows he understands the absurdity of his question, but that realisation doesn't negate his own existence. And he also understands the 'reason' behind his own creation/existance.
RP: Correct - I think the major battles in our heads is - no way this world is illusion and no way I am an illusion.
Then We have to understand what's called as illusion - as per definitions.
Even Shruti says we are real - except it says tat twam asi. But for us we are our limited beings! That should tell us what is called illusion
AV: It's like waves in the sea
RP: If the limited I is illusion then everything that makes me think I am limited is to be questioned
GP: The question was not about illusion. The definition of illusion was clarified in our earlier discussions.
The question is, why did the limited illusory world come up in the first place?
Much as, why did the waker project a dream world?
I know from the waker's perspective, the dream is an illusion.
RP: Think there is no answer to this. There was no first place or first time. Jeev and Atman both are beginningless but atman is also endless.
Many theories are there - Brahman decided to become many - there are some shlokas like that. Even if if became many it did not become different or limited. But we think we are both different and limited. That's the illusion we carry
GP: That's because we identify with our bmi and the oet and we feel we are limited, like the actor who forgets he is only playing the role of a beggar and believes he is poor
RP: Exactly! The small child still has not fully identified with his bmi and oet so he truly thinks he was ever present! Hence the qn where was I in the wedding album
Who was more knowledgeable the mother or kid?
GP: This example has severe limitations
Try tell the mother that the child is an illusion
RP: Sure does!
GP: And the mother and child are 2 distinct entities having a dialogue
The dreamer and the waker cannot co-exist, they cannot have a dialog. They are actually the 'same'
Su: I agree with GP. Iam told you are identify with the BMI and OET makes the world real for you. You don't know what is real you. So stop identifying with these instruments and then go thru the struggle of doing all that. Then what be told all this was illusion! Why go thru the entire circle only to reach the point where I started....why start at all.
I think this is a huge stumbling block for most...
From the theory point of view I understand, but 'I' cannot understand and cannot relate. Right now this 'I'is very real to me. So I can intellectually acknowledged a theory that does not convince me right now so that I can move ahead... but...
SD: But Sunitha its again your mind playing tricks on you. There is no cycle.
I think even intellectually understanding this is a big step. The next step would be to slowly practically start applying this knowledge
But going back to Swamiji's question of Is there a God? I think all of us agree that there is
RP: Sunita - we have to learn new methods of overcoming. One of the most stressed factors in thus study is that we study systematically - kram se. But we jump all over from Jeev to maya to Brahman and think why start at all! Part of the problem with chyks
GP: Sorry ram. I don't agree.
The problem is not with 'chyks', the problem is with me. My mind.
RP: Also go back to how we learnt the basics when we were kids. All of us were taught to say I am a boy or I am a girl. We happily said that a full year before we understood what boy or girl meant
SD: Also when we ask questions like ' why and when' regarding creation it means that there was a purpose and a kind of dependency. Why would the infinite be interested in this?
GP: And why do you feel this is not systematic or not helping? I think all these questions help shake us up. We think we are clear and we understand everything. I know I'm not.
SD: Yes I agree with GP. All the mind having fun
The more doubts I have, the more I question and the more I reach that much closer to the truth
GP: And then at the end of all the gymnastics and the chaos, swamiji comes and helps bring in clarity. And it's superb to repeatedly keep having this satsang. Hopefully I will be clearer by the end of this text than I was before 😊
RP: If we insisted that we understand what boy or girl means at that age before we agree to say I am a boy - it won't move anywhere. Now we are saying unless we understand everything of Brahman we won't agree We are Brahman .
Agree GP but systematic study is not something I am saying - that's how it is stressed.
GP: And I'm saying this too is systematic study.
In fact in my case, thanks to this, there is some study. 😄
RP: Lol
Same here
SD: Yes seriously I was totally rusted. Now feel a teensy bit oiled😌
RP: Yup! Got to sleep now. Otherwise the waker will ask why I could not hear the alarm!
GP: Gnite! Hari om!
RP: Hari Om!
JV: When "I" is not there, there is only supreme Consciousness. We all are aware of this without doubt. "I" has to go through the ordeals of life and cannot escape the responsibilities. we need to be clear about what is sought? Is "I" seeking the end of ordeal, is "I" seeking happiness? "I" can function only within its own realm. It can seek things in its own world. Thus when it is seeking permanent happiness it tries to end responsibilities. However, that doesn't solve the problem. The idea is to dissolve this "I". This is done by selfless activities, sadhana's, fasts, continuous contemplation and extreme faith and perseverance! Wait with patience that one day "I" will dissolve.
VS: Hari Om all! Enjoyed the lovely conversations. Ok... I am not convinced about Brahman... or the reason for the creation... but for a moment if I step back silently and observe... ain't I different from the BMI... and isn't the silent observation only because I have detached myself from the world,?
I think somewhere down the line... I know n understand the fact of illusion, , creation and brahman. But I just don't want to do it.
This is specific to me.
So is it a problem of willingness
Like I don't like to study for exams
Regarding the world... its an imaginary game of gi joe or house house or like some one said acting
I identify n get lost with the role
And so is the reason for any conflict with O, E or T
BV: Vinod.....not just lost...but also enjoy it. If the activity or experience is not liked....then ways and means of ending it is contemplated. While we discuss these principles ...the thirst to end the present state or to grow out of it is required.....if the teenager refuses to let go of the cradle saying he is enjoying it, he cannot experience the joys of boyhood.
VS: Agree Bharat. Yes...
Looks like we need to remind ourselves like 2nd chapter of Art of Man Making... WHY THE URGENCY
SS: Very happy about the discussions on this group after 2-3 days of silence.
VS: Yes Swamiji
Swamiji... since everything is illusion anyway... is there any point pondering on why the creation
N since everything is Illusion... what is the need for a Lord.
SS: Causation-hunting is the preoccupation of the intellect said Poojya Gurudev. Thats how we have made all the progress. When we apply the same to creation and try to find out why creation?, We have to understand different levels at which vedanta deals with the question.
Level 1: it gives different explanations about the purpose of creation. Eg. One Truth decided to become many or to entertain itself or to manifest its infinite potential etc. Many explanations are there. Now this is said to someone who needs reasoning. There is no way to prove which is right. when Gurudev was asked why creation? He said - i dont know. Ask the creator. How to reach the creator? That i can tell you.
Level 2: one who has gone deeper into vedanta AND purified the mind through Sadhana is told that the question itself is wrong because it has many assumptions like a)creation is real. b) Someone else created it who is different from me and im suffering in HIS creation c) intellect and purpose has to be there behind the creation etc. Any answer given to the question is only a dissatisfactory attempt to explain a logical AND practical impossibility like rope producing the snake. So dont search answers to purpose of creation but enquire into what is the REAL substratum of the illusory creation. This is called transcending intellect or logic using intellect and logic. Devotion to Guru or Scriptures or Reality are needed to make this happen
Level 3: when one enquires into the substratum then one finds that the questioner dissolves in complete surrender. One has arrived at intuitive experience of Reality. Creation creator and creature merge. All efforts stop.
SS: As long as illusion appears real one has to enquire vinod. Also, if illusion is there, substratum has to be there. Hence the need of the Lord because creation is there - illusory or assumed as 'real'
NG: Wow - that was beautiful Swamiji. Esp. Gurudev's answer.
SS: Truly no one to match Gurudev! 🙏
Our problem is we keep shifting levels
VS: So when (suppose) I realise... can I also say there's no God
SS: Intellectual stamina is necessary for systematic enquiry. Swami Vidyaranya says Vichaaram na sahate maayaa. Maya cannot bear Enquiry. Consistent enquiry and sadhana lead us to systematic convictions and we can rise in the levels. Alas we drop the enquiry midway or jump levels
For a realized master there is no God distinct from Self or Brahman. Jiva jagat and jagadeeshwara are seen as Brahman only
BV: In many of the answers thatRamana Maharishi gives to questions ....., he has a standard reply....who is the feeler/thinker/sad one/insulted one etc. etc....he prods the seeker to break the illusion time and again... I think this is why we need the lord....as Swamiji said....
separate substratum from illusion.
SD: In a way Swamiji aren't we all creators as everything around is is because of our identification. Gurudev was so right. We have to question ourselves
SS: For level 2 to happen to us we need the 9 qualifications of vedanta beginning from viveka and ending in mumukshutvam. Till viveka is not strong creation will appear real and questions will be intellectual only and same questions will keep arising. Satsang and manan strengthen viveka
GP: I guess in our case it is 'completely ensconced in maaya, we do not have the stamina for sustained enquiry'. 😄
SS: Yes swapna. We are creators of samsaar(our inner world). Jagat(so called external world) is created by the Lord. Enquriy into the nature if both is essential. Just one of them wont do
Tat tvam asi is to point out unity of jiva and ishwara. Many seekers do only enquiry into one and so dont understand properly.
SD: Yes. Slowly getting it now
VS: Thanks for the lovely explanation Swamiji
SS: Can we move on or anything more to discuss on this?
VS: So we continue the intellectual enquiry. Find the creator to ask why Your unexplainable creation?
Continue this enquiry with devotion to Guru or Lord... until we are convinced that everything gets merged into one.
SS: Yes
VS: 🙏Swamiji
But I must admit I'm still utterly confused 😞
All I understand is I must continue to enquire... invoking His Grace
BV: Don't find the creator to ask him questions .....
find him to discover your true nature...
VS: Yes...
SS: Ego wants answers to questions and feels satisfied. it sustains itself in the illusion of purpose and its fulfilment. When vedanta questions the ego's existence and reality it gives to creation, ego is jolted and struggles hard to preserve itself through duty, purpose, service, making a difference etc. Like the camphor struggles to keep the flame on in the last few moments before extinguishing itself. One who can see this clearly lets go of everything that ego wants to hold on. Thats why it is said tyaaga is the only way. We have to drop the security of our beliefs. Thats the price we pay to know the Truth.
Purpose has relevance in the roles we play and helps us to be focussed and single-pointed so that when we do vedantic enquiry with such a single-pointed mind we can transcend it and the need of purpose.
We were on the first verse of upadesha saar and were enquiring into the existence of the Lord. Anything that is accepted by all the three - shruti(scriptures) yukti(logic) and anubhuti(experience) is considered valid in vedanta.
We apply this to the existence of the Lord. Shruti has declared that Lord is and as Brahman it is the Changeless substratum of the world and as Ishwara- the creator sustainer and destroyer of the world. Yukti or logic says if there is an effect there has to be a cause. Creation cannot come out of nothing. Anubhooti says if there is water in the tap it proves existence of the ocean. The very fact that i exist as an individual means there has to be a Totality. When i become unmanifest in deepsleep there is no creation and creator. Hence from all standpoints the Lord exists.
Nature of that Lord is consciousness, compassion, omniscience, omnipotent and omnipresent. Now the question is what is the relationship of Ishwara to the jagat or creation and to jiva or individual? Does he control everything? Why should we surrender to HIM?
These questions we can think on because the verse says that results come by His command.
BV: When we read "At every breath a teaching"...we note that Gurudev often reiterated that the plan was sent to him by the proprietor. But there are also incidents where Gurudev exhibited something resembling an individuality. In one instance, he told a lady hankering gurudev to face east while lighting ,the lamp as "The direction i stand and face is the 'east' ". So basically where is it individual will and where is it the proprietor's? Can someone please throw some light?
SS: Sunitha u can answer bharath. U had the same question which got answered in the discussions held earlier.
Su: We identified with the BMI and OET think of our effort and cosmic grace as two different things. From the perspective of the Brahman my effort is also His Grace. But right now due to the ego we don't understand this. So the technique is to selflessly work and dedicate all the work at His feet and reduce the ego. When the ego is diluted the he understands that his effort and His will/effort was the same.
Am I right Swamiji.
SS: Yes
Gurudev at all times identified with HIM. He may be appearing to show individuality or surrender at different times as per situation, person's level etc.
GP: In fact when gurudev made that statement to that lady it was also a great lesson in vedanta. That time and space (incl directions) are relevant only in the realm of the bmi. But from the ultimate standpoint there is no time and space - no east or west.
Isn't it swamiji?
SS: True
Understanding the state of Jivanmukti itself is difficult. To understand the 'actions' of a Jivanmukta is even more difficult because it is action amidst actionlessness.
VS: Swamiji isn't this explanation somwat similar to the first stanza
GP: And the concept of 'grace' must be relevant from the perspective of 'ishwara' and not from the perspective of Brahman. Isn't that right?
SS: No vinod
SS: Yes GPji
Actually from perspective of Jiva Grace is needed. Hence from ishwara's perspective it is relevant
Coming back to our question: what is the relationship of ishwara with jagat and jeeva?
BV: Why GP? Is it bcoz grace has to come from somewhere higher.....whereas when we talk of brahman, there are no levels ....all is one whole?
Su: Yes, GP got your point. Grace is more relevant from Ishwara point of view.
GP: Yes bharat, from the standpoint of Brahman there is no creation. But the individual jeeva needs the grace of the lord (ishwara) in various ways.
Swamiji, our individual mind creates our individual world. And the total mind (ishwara) projects (creates) the total world of oet (jagat).
Isn't that true?
SS: Yes true
RP: Jagat : everything that is observed and experienced. Includes outer and inner worlds
Jiva: the individual identity or ego whose existence is due to the identification with bmi
Ishwara: creator , sustainer and destroyer of the jagat.
So relationship would be - jagat is the field of experiences, Jeev is the experiencer and Ishwara is The Lord of the universe
Hope I got it right
SS: Yes ramkumarji. This is fine. What we have to know is how does ishwara relate to jagat. Does he control it fully? This is in context to first line of the verse which says by His command results come.
GP: Can the lord make a mango tree produce oranges?
SS: Why not?
GP: Then it means that iswara control the jagat fully.
Including making an elephant fly?
I would have thought that he has created everything and also the laws behind everything, and in that sense controls everything.
But all of creation largely operates within those laws.
And so if I plant a mango seed, and pray to the lord to give me oranges, then it would be foolish of me to blame the lord when the tree still produces mangoes!
And why would the lord want a mango tree to produce oranges?
Unless he was suddenly in the mood for some oranges! 😜
SS: Exceptions dont negate rules but prove them.
GP: True
SS: Creator definitely relates to creation through laws but the laws cant bind the creator
GP: So to answer your question swamiji, ishwara fully controls the jagat.
SS: We have no freedom then?
GP: I could have planted a mango seed and taken all care to nurture, but that doesn't necessarily mean the tree will produce mangoes. In a sense it is in ishwara's control and I need his grace to get the mangoes.
I have the freedom to choose between a mango seed or an orange seed. Isn't it?
And I have to put in the effort also
NG: Ishwara controls jeeva also?
BV: Is it also that even the knowledge of difference between a mango and orange seed is a result of grace? Very fact that jagat is operating should be the grace of ishwara?
Su: If we go back to saying Brahman is cotton, ishwara the thread, jagat the cloth and jeeva the embroidery design. Then jagat is macro form of ishwara and jeeva micro
BV: Jeeva is just iswara in individual form right?
GP: But does ishwara control the jeeva?
Su: No ishwara controls Maya and creates.
GP: So does that mean ishwara does not control jagat?
But we say ishwara creates, sustains and destroys, right?
If that isn't controlling, what is?
Su: If Iam limited version of ishwara, then the question of control ?
GP: And if the jeeva is part of the jagat, then by that logic, the jeeva is also controlled by ishwara?
Do I have control over my heartbeat? Or is that controlled by ishwara? His grace?
But what about my mind and it's thoughts? As far as my mind goes, I can tell you, ishwara has absolutely no control over the riot that goes on in there! 😄
RP: So if I have infinite powers - I can control in few styles -
Whims and Fancy, abide by Rules and regulation
Su: I always thought of jagat and jeeva as something that ishwara had transformed into to create. But since we are identifying with the BMI and OET we see ourselves as separate. So from individual point of view there is ishwara controlling jeeva.
Isn't the creator and His laws the same?
I mean not literally...
RP: Logical to say rules and regulation - but it is compassion based - apply the rule to help and if required bend as well to help
Compassion around what is the final goal and ultimate good rather than get me few more dollars type
SD: But Sunitha like GP said, do we have control over heartbeat? So there is something which has a hold on us
Su: I think I have read somewhere Gurudev saying that at a larger level, the direction life takes is decided. But on a daily, moment to moment level we have the freedom to choose.
But who decided that direction? Me right? With my past actions...
GP: Yes
RP: The method of his control is by the magic word Dharma. The sea and the stars all stays within its dharma though they have enough power to blow up the world as we know it.
Su: So they are following a law.
RP: Similarly the heart's dharma is to beat - and we are good as long as it does that. If it violates - either faster or slower - we have a problem
SD: Because of my past action I am in present situation. My life where I am born is all preordained. But it is up to me to decide where I go from here.
RP: Correct .
SD: So me as an individual(jeeva) identifies with bmi and lives in oet . So on the bmi level there is something that controls me. All I can do is take care of my body, try and control the mind and train the intellect.
So this control that Ishwara has and destiny or prarabdha, is it the same?
By my above understanding, it is and then we play the blame game with God
BV: I think prarabda and purushartha are also part of dharma....otherwise there would be chaos....an action has to give result.. so ultimately ishwara only controls. This is an indirect method (Indirect Tax). Once we go beyond Jeeva & Jagat, there is no Karma. There is selfless action. No accumulation....my understanding is this. Swamiji, please correct me if i am wrong...
SS: Ishwara creates and along with creation also has made laws which operate in this creation defining the nature of a thing and its powers and limits. Ramkumarji referred to it as dharma. Having created the laws ishwara does not interfere. He only ensures laws function properly. Except human being everyone else lives by instinct. He gave freedom of thinking and selfawareness to humans to choose their actions. Results will come according to the laws he made externally and internally. Internal laws are values and laws of karma etc. He does not interfere in our thinking but his laws function and give results. Hence it is said by His will we get results and lets accept it as His Prasad.
The laws function so precisely that we forget the lawmaker and think that these laws are supreme. Like the scientists who think Creation functions on autopilot due to laws of nature. or we think our actions invoking these laws are supreme and so results we get due to our actions and we become arrogant like the ascetics.
Now and then the Lord may decide to change the law or show some exception. We call that miracle
The verse is to tell us that none of the following are supreme:
A. The laws or Nature
B. the actions because actions get us everything.
C. The doer of actions because im the doer and enjoyer and all depends on me the performer
D. Results because they are what drive us to act.
Trapped in either of these we forget the Lord. Think about it. Is it not our situation? We think of any or all of the above as more powerful and so dont turn to the Lord.
Ja: True also think the decision s we take to be made by us and we are the master
But it is not so ,
JV: Thank you Swatmanadji. its clear now. Noose of the concepts are too tight. Not willing to let go off the charms and insecure of it, want to build walls around to protect it. Not willing to let go of all of it veils us from the lord.
On a lighter vein, and if I should refrain from such in between digression, please message me on a separate note. Here goes the next msg
Neither there is sound nor silence.
Neither there is light nor darkness.
There is nothing. Yet it is complete.
There are no moments. Time is an unknown entity.
This is still and there are no movements, yet seems to be most dynamic.
I know about this only when I am not there.
Relax, I am just talking about deep sleep.
Now we can get back to original topic
VS: Ishwara creates the Jagat and the Jeeva. The Jeeva creates one's own Jagat based on its association with the the original Jagat. So there are multiple projections by multiple Jeevas on the main projection.
SS: Yes.
VS: Swamiji has Ishwara created the Jagat for the following reasons;:-
1. To show us what Dharma is... and that we need to follow the same
2. That we need to let the world be the way it is
3. We need to perceive the world the same way as He has projected it.
4. If we are able to do that we can control everything or reach him
Or that He has already projected everything perfectly n I don't hv any job.
SS: U can give a million more reasons..... Go back to what was said about different levels of handling why creation? and try to understand.
Nisha swasti. 😴
VS: Yes I remember that
Shubh ratri Swamiji
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