Upadesh Saar - Introduction : Day 4

SS: Ramana Maharshi – One of the greatest spiritual luminaries of India. Lived from 30th December 1879 to 14th April 1950. Was named VenkataRamana in childhood. Had deep devotion to Arunachala Shiva.  Did not know about Arunachala Mountain in Tiruvannamalai in Tamilnadu till he was 16 but he knew that it was his destination. Had a ‘death’-experience at 16 where he felt his body was dead but felt the presence of full force of his personality. Left home on 29th August 1896 and went to Tiruvannamalai, surrendered to arunachala shiva.  Never left it after reaching it. Spent time in abiding in the Self. Lived in silence for 11 years there.  Was called as Kumar-Swamy because he was very young.

Champion of Who am I enquiry. Known for his silence.  In His presence doubts of people got cleared and people felt peace.  Both Tapovan Maharaj & Poojya Gurudev  Swami Chinmayanandaji met Ramana during their early seeking and sat in his presence for 30minutes and returned without speaking a word and yet communicating fully.

Great author who wrote works in Sanskrit, tamil, telugu and Malayalam. Upadesha saar was his original composition in Tamil called as Upadesha Undiyaar.

SD: The darshan of HIS. samadhi automatically draws you into deep silence. It is an indescribable feeling

Su: Gurudev's thought for the day: The heart is Sita, the head is Rama, the mind is Mareecha and the Indriyas are Ravana........  Think.....

GP: How so?

Su: So when I read this,  what I thought was..  Mareecha was sent by Ravana to kidnap Sita.  Mareecha took the form of the golden deer,  which was very attractive.  Sita got attracted and desired to have the deer without knowing its true nature.  Blinded by her desire she impulsively ran behind it, even though Rama had warned her. She ignored the warnings.  Was caught and kidnapped.  The Rama had to fight with these forces and get her back.

What Iam not too clear is Ravana's role as the Indriyas

RP: Ten headed Ravana

Su: Oh yes..

RP: 5 gyan indriyas + 5 karm indriyas.

Mareecha probably is OET world of objects. What's difference between heart and mind ?

GP: How is mareecha the mind? And sita the heart?

RP: Sita is heart and Mareecha is mind  - not connecting. Mareecha is objects. Or world or samsara

GP: That's not what the quote says

RP: Mind runs behind samsara and gets trapped by indriyas - that makes some sense

Su: Is it the mind takes the form of the objects that the Indriyas perceive

RP: Su pls check the quote again

Su: Ok will check and get back..

GP: In our discussions when we have used head and heart, we meant the intellect and the mind. Here in this quote there is head, heart, mind and indriyas. therefore I'm not clear what each means. And when I try connect it to each character I can't seem to understand the connection.

GP: Anyway, I don't think we should digress from the topic of upadesh saar. Maybe swamiji can throw some light, or we can park this for now.

RP: Agree

RP: btw trivia - let's call our group as the What's-In group

Su: I had sent this quote last year,  have recycled it today.  I have to hunt for the book from where I got it. I don't exactly remember.  Because I take Gurudev's words from various books.  I am generally careful, but will recheck.  So wait till I find it.

RP: CM Setukari What's- In group

GP: Nice one ram

We don't ask 'what's up', we're here to understand 'what's in'! And people want to know 'what's in' in terms of trends and style. But we want to know 'what's in' us. And therefore the question 'who am i', and therefore ramana maharshi's text!

'what's in' is what is trending here!

RP: Good one

SS: Gurudev's quote needs to be rechecked or the context needs to be known.

I can think of the following if the quote is right: senses-ravana sends mind-mareecha to tempt seeker-sita. Senses present a tempting world to a seeker.  Seeker-Sita gets enchanted by the fancies portrayed (golden deer) by the mind-mareecha and shifts the focus from ram-intellect and even forces ram to fulfil the fancy. When intellect thus drops discrimination n chases the fancies, the senses-Ravana kidnaps seeker-Sita. This is just an interpretation and many questions can arise

SD: This is better to understand. Seeker makes sense. Heart I was a bit confused

GP: Makes sense swamiji. And like you said, it's important to know in what context gurudev mentioned this.

SS: Mind could mean lower-mind and heart could mean the purified mind or higher mind. Hence i thought lets take heart as the seeker

GP: Yes, I also thought of it as a purified mind wedded to/ integrated with the subtle intellect. (sita wedded to rama)

Su: Checking in progress.... went thru 4 books.  Totally forgot where I read it

SS: Context of Upadesha Saar is a story I’m sending in the following picture. Pl read it. Those who have the book can see in the book too. What are our learnings from this story in the context of our life today?

SS: Image

 

VS: This story shows the importance of the Self-knowledge to get out the  knowledge cycle.  How we get carried away by other desires (siddhis in this case).  Self-knowledge is also develop conviction and understanding.  It helps us set a lofty and higher Goal.  Without a Goal, not only do we lose what we already have but the mind also gets deluded and lured by the maya of world (Mohini).

RP: 1. Actions being finite their results cannot be infinite. For complete fulfillment action is not sufficient - as mentioned in the story the ascetics were not feeling satisfaction,

2. Action cannot independently produce results. Results are given by The Lord - famous Gita shlok is known to all.

3. Self knowledge alone gives complete satisfaction,

VS: Very nice anna. I missed the dissatisfaction portion. Action cannot independently produce results? I think they can produce results... but only finite results.

GP: We are so much like the ascetics in the story. We are devout ritualists (dedicated professionals) and most of our time is spent in performing these rituals (our chosen careers and duties). We believe that our achievements are a result of our own efforts. We take pride in our achievements. Despite all our achievements, we feel a sense of incompleteness and dissatisfaction. But instead of enquiring and trying to understand what is it that we are really seeking, we continue to keep getting deluded by every new enchantment that appears before us. And when we don't manage to gain this new attraction, we become frustrated and angry (or sometimes despondent) and then spend time agonising and striving to gain it at any cost.

SS: Nice points by all three of you. Others pl join

Su: My thoughts were in line with GP. Other than that I was thinking it brings in the angle of doership.  Lack of knowledge  creates a delusion of me being the doer... and then I become the enjoyer...  this attitude with which the action is done further binds me.

NG: Also shows the compassion of the Lord. Though apparently the ascetics appear deluded (believing in the supremacy of actions, Going after siddhis etc), the Lord appreciated their regular sadhana and came to liberate them.

SP: We get so ritualistic (caught up in our professions or daily activities) that we forget the love, the joy behind the activities. We become very machine-like. That's where dissatisfaction and incompleteness creeps in.

SR: Actions even routine ones are necessary. We need to perform as our various roles demand. But with clarity of the meaning & purpose.

SP: They are but we become like machines when we do it in a routine manner. And our broken out of it only when we feel we r losing something we love and things are getting out of hand.

VS: But these activities are not mechanical all the time.  Most times we love doing it for our family, our child, our spouse, our family or extended family.  I think the problem arises on a day when we are exhausted and when have expectations.

Su: These rishies even when performing the rituals could not sustain focus.  When they saw their wives following the young man they got distracted from the ritual,  then even when they were pursuing their wives midway they got enchanted by Mohini .

So even if we have become ritualistic (preoccupied with our actions bringing believing that it will make us happy) that also we are not able to pursue with single pointed attention.  Mind keeps running after everything that it sees and wants.  How can a mind like that look deep. 

There is a need to stop, surrender and seek knowledge and get the right perspective where we may succeed in convincing the  mind about the futility Of it's pursuits.

VS: I always remember 2 statements from economics. 1.Man is an unsatisfied animal.

2. We work to achieve our ends. We look for means to achieve our ends. But we get carried away by the means everytime.

Fyjc

SR: So Shreya, alert action is required, focussing on here & now. Reminding ourselves to create meaning in our activities, give our best regardless of appreciation & rewards. Right?

VS: NG akka... I liked the point you mentioned about the endless compassion of the Lord... its so important.  and again as you mentioned... God helps those who helps them selves

SS: Nice points everyone. Here are some of my reflections. Darukaa means a puppet in Sanskrit.  Not knowing that the Lord is the player and we are the puppets, the Rishis thought that their actions give them results.  Just like how many people today believe in ‘logic’ of cause and effect.  They believe in Nature/Science but not in existence of the Lord and that all happens by HIS Will.

Darukaa is the name of the forest where these ascetics lived

SS: b.     Ascetics engaged themselves in performance of rituals or sakaama-karma(actions for one’s desire-fulfillment).  Since ancient vedic times,  we have known that Mantra Vidya is sufficient to achieve one’s goals.  Single pointed mind focusing on a goal/desire performing the right actions would get what it wants.  Going a bit deeper, a single-pointed thought sustained without any contradictory thought could also ‘attract’ what we want to ourselves.  That’s the power of Mantra and a singlepointed mind.  Actions may not even be requird.  We thought that ‘The Secret’ was a recent discovery.

Inspite of many siddhis(Achievements) they still kept doing more and more rituals to fill their incompleteness and dissatisfaction.  Can the finite incomplete worldly achievements remove our sense of incompleteness? No.  Yet we chase them more and more.  How much is enough? We must ask ourselves.

Incompleteness goes only by being aware of completeness within.  What is the priority we give to the pursuit of Knowledge?  How much time we devote for it? 

In worldly life action = achievement. In spiritual life, Knowledge = Achievement.

True asceticism is not in depriving or torturing oneself by being away from sense pleasures(living in forest).  Its not in performance of rituals, mantras, chanting etc..  These practices do help but the purpose for which it is done is important.  If our actions, self-control, spiritual practices etc. are to reduce our ego, that is true asceticism.  Tapas is not to boost our ego but to burst it. Tap means to burn and also to shine.  One one hand it burns our negatives and ego and on the other helps us to shine as the Self which is our True Nature.

f.      Inspite of living in forests, away from temptations, the ascetics and their wives got carried away by Mohini and the Young mendicant.  What is true Sense-Control?   Senses and desires arising out of perception must be handled with discrimination.  Do I need it?  Is it dharmic to pursue this pleasure? What will I get even if I indulge?  Am I not happy without it?  Am I pursuing it with dharmic means or is there a compromise? Are some of the questions one can ask.

There are some more points but we pause here for discussion on the above.

GP: The whole saar of the text seems to be present in this story itself! It just requires us to have to the right vision. That's what we are also beginning to see here through such satsang.

One point in relation to the 'darukaa' point is that - the true spirit in which we should therefore act is to think of ourselves only as an instrument through which the Lord's will happens.

At the same time, we should not use this as an excuse for laziness and sit back saying that when the Lord wills, he will ensure that it happens!

SS: Yes

VS: Thanks for the meaning of Daruka Swamiji. Puppets in whose hands... our senses or the Almighty Lord!!!

SS: Good point Vinod.

SS: Exercise for today:

1. Ask youself - how much is enough for me and family? Knowing this helps us to balance our  external and internal pursuits and also puts aside greed.

2. What tempts me at the sensory level? Do i enjoy it as a master or a slave?

3. What am i doing for sense-mastery?

You can answer it for yourself. Not necessary to share. You are welcome to share if you like.

VS: Thanks Swamiji

VS: Ohhh. So difficult to decide how much is enough for me.  Even more difficult to decide what is enough for the family.

SS: It is difficult but think and you will know. For family you decide based on your duty, to your satisfaction.

SR: Swamiji could you please elaborate on ' Dharmic means'?

SS: Example 1: I am tempted looking at a pizza. But i dont have money. I can wait and eat when i have money is Dharmic means or cheat someone and fulfil my desire at that moment - adharmic means.

Example 2: i want to see a movie. Buying ticket through counter is dharmic. Black-ticket is adharmic.

Example 3: i need to exercise. I wake up but fall asleep giving-in to temptation. There is a compromise here though its not adharmic.

SS: Example 4: i want tasty food. I can eat vegetarian. Dharmic. Even if i have a choice to eat vegetarian i still prefer non-veg. Adharmic. Why harm a life for my taste?

SR: Thank you swamiji

SS: In context of the story what the ascetics and their wives did was adharmic when they got tempted by the mendicant and mohini. They were committed in marriage and yet got tempted. Today one may say whats wrong? But it is wrong. Leads to emotional hurts, breaks trust, mind becomes everhungry for sense pleasure and one stoops to physical levels becoming incapable to looking at oneself and the other person as an emotional intellectual and spiritual entity.

So the pursuit itself was adharmic. Dharmic means wont help in such cases. One cant get away saying but they dint do anything. They only got tempted. Thats the limitation of the story.

SR: How much is enough? One situation it is relevant is in today's times with the rise of the mall culture. We end up buying & hoarding in excess, much more than we really need

SD: The first question is tough for me as there is always that looming feeling of the future and how what we r doing now might not be enough especially vis a vis our children

Actually the more I think of it, the more I realise that it is coping mechanism for me. Use someone else as excuse for something you are afraid of doing. The society, status, children are actually mere excuses
Sorry guys. just thinking aloud

SS: Some more points of the story:

g. Even when the Lord manifested to give knowledge to the Ascetics, they continued their rituals.  So many opportunities we get for satsang but do we grab them?  Many of us postpone it saying right now actions are important.

h.     Emotional anchoring is extremely important.  Without this, sense-control will not last long.   We try to anchor in people and get attached, angry etc. Devotion to the Lord is the best way of emotional anchoring.   Devotion brings emotional security because the Lord alone accepts us, loves us as we are and loves us unconditionally.  The story shows that absence of Self-Knowledge & Devotion both led the ascetics and their wives astray.

What do we do to invoke Devotion?  How to connect with HIM daily and stay connected through the day?

i.       Ascetics got angry on the Mendicant because their wives were carried away by the Mendicant.  Why did they not trust their wives?  Why did they not try and find out who the mendicant was and what was his purpose before arriving at any conclusion? 

They set out to search their wives, but they also got tempted by Mohini.   The same purpose for which they got angry with their wives, they got carried away with.  .  How the mind tricks us!  Psychology says – What we resent or resist or hate, we strengthen that within ourselves.

j.       When Mohini disappears, they blame the mendicant and start fighting with him.  Not for a moment they take responsibility for their actions.  Extroverted mind engages in blame-game and becomes a victim of life.  One curses the Lord, fights with HIM and questions His Intelligence through the question- Why Me?  The Lord smiles.

k.     Satsang is achieved through Grace of the Lord.  Daruka-Vana ascetics were not even aware of what they were lacking and kept doing rituals but the Lord knew what they needed and the whole leela was done for that.  HE knows what we need, when, how, where etc.  Let us know that HE has placed us in the right place.  Lets keep doing our duty dedicating it to HIM.

l.       The ascetics forgot the Lord and even fought with him. But the Lord loved them inspite of everything.   No matter what we have done in life, let us know that The Lord loves us.  Drop all the guilt, negative feelings, low self-worth etc. and know that HE loves us and make HIS love our strength.

m.   Everyone deserves Self-Knowledge and Devotion. No one is undeserving.

n.     The right time to start seeking is NOW and the right place is wherever your are.

Su: Today our relationship with the Lord is transactional.... We are devoted but lack the faith, hence the fear. 

It will never be enough because we believe we are providing for us and loved ones.  We believe/convinced that earning and hoarding = security.

VS: Thanks for clarifying my question on enjoyment  limit akka. And yes I agree to the transactional relationship too.

Few more things you mentioned were so correct Swamiji.  Buck passing has become such a comfortable thing as hitting a mosquito. We miss so many opportunities n blame "samsara"

But Swamiji making this decision is very difficult.

Swamiji one more point from your explanation about the Siddhas. A focused thought can help us achieve what we want.  The issue is with what desires we focus on.

Su: I think there are many who are unable to focus on one desire to begin with. Whatever be the desire. If ppl actually focused on one desire in a single pointed manner ppl would have achieved a lot.  We begin with a desire to do something and midway another desire takes over.  In the end we are fragmented with multiple desires and  hardly any of them fulfilled

SS: Choice of desire to focus on depends on many factors as swadharma, goal, stage in life, duties etc. One has to prioritise focus and execute.

AV: Haven't gone through the whole thing and this is a bit out of context - but I don't think non vegetarianism can be tied to adharma. It's a personal choice. For people who have grown up eating non veg food it's a natural food choice. Besides it's far more healthier than eating junk food.

SS: Sorry i beg to differ. Going by your logic cannibalism is also ok as they have grown up eating that way. Will we allow them to kill us? One may have grown up eating anything but if choice is there why kill a more evolved being?

AV: First of all one always is eating life  - plants also have life.

Second there is always a food chain in the animal kingdom.

Cannibalism is not the same thing as non-vegetarianism.

SS: Akshata please reply

VS: There is a very beautiful video of Gurudev in this regard

All of us know about food cycle in this world. Unlike animals man is the only one who has the choice to eat or do what he wants.

GP: I had once written to gurudev asking him how it would be possible for Eskimos to be vegetarians. He had replied saying that they have no choice but to be non-vegetarians. The question is what do you choose when you have a choice?

VS: Since we have a choice, but we need some food to survive.  All beings have to undergo the pain. We have a choice to choose the least insensitive being.

AM: Hari om, Non veg food stays in the body for 72 hours, veg junk food does not stay in the gut so long. Non veg has has fat plus requires more fat to cook it. Research suggests that cancer is more prone to non-vegetarians. Vegetarian food has enough proteins for bodys wear and tear.

Coming to the food chain, humans have three options to eat either plant, animal or humans

VS: And its scientifically proven that plants and trees are the least insensitive.

GP: Anjali, you're right, it is a personal choice. Having been a non-vegetarian myself, I know that a person chooses to eat non-vegetarian even when there is a choice, because the person enjoys it more. So at the the end of the day, it is a choice driven purely by one's selfish need for pleasing the palate.

VS: Yes it's true we are hurting them. That's the reason we pray before eating that "O'Lord please give me the strength and will power only to eat the minimum possible for my existence because this being is sacrificing for my survival"

AM: One doesn't need to destroy a plant to eat a fruit unlike the non veg food...

We are what we eat... When we slaughter the chickens, they are frightened whch transcends to us. Imagine the amount of diseases we get

VS: E.g. swine flu, bird flu

GP: Akshata, that logic is fallacious, because we do destroy plants too. Eg. When we eat leafy vegetables. We also get diseases from fruits and vegetables. Even vegetarians can get afflicted by swine and bird flu.

AM: Like Gurudev said, food is a medicine.

GP: I think it is important for us as seekers to focus on ourself.

AM: True bhaiyya

GP: And not pass judgement whether another person is more evolved or less based on their diet.

AM: But we get diseases from air and water also na...

VS: Agree... it was only an answer to the question. No judgements

GP: The question I have to ask myself is, what do I choose when I have a choice?

VS: Exactly... and that's why we are talking about selflessness.

And also that doesn't make a vegetarian any better if his other actions are not in control. So the choice applies to everything at BMI level.

AV: Yeah it's a personal choice. Akshata junk food is positively more hazardous to health. And when one loads on non-nutritional food it just gets converted into fats. Junk food is junk.

VS: Only fats n carbs

AV: And besides protein, non-veg food or rather animal products have lots of vitamins missing in plant food. So veg especially vegans need supplements. I know this because I have low B12 - btw I am a vegetarian. But it's completely by choice

RP: Back to the main topic. Though now the ascetics shortcomings and flaw in their thinking is clear - we still have to remember that The Lord himself came to help. So they must have earned enough merit for this. Does doing rituals (our day to day jobs) even out of ignorance earn us that merit?  What's the missing link?

VS: This is where Nirupama akka said... HIS Divine Grace is also important. Here we are talking about Siddhas who performed mechanically. There are so many other Mahatmas who perform actions with utmost love n devotion.  Finally, he is the Judge who decides if we are ready for it.

Ratnakara became Valmiki; A tribal became Sabari.

SD: I think the missing link is when the sense of ' doership' becomes very strong

VS: Am I digressing?

RP: But the fact that they got direct darshan means there is a lot of merit they have acquired. Want to focus on that a bit because we are also engaged in routine activities but don't seem to be taking us any closer and there could be some thing to learn here.

VS: What is the measurement that we are going closer... I don't think there is a gauge to judge that

SD: They did not get direct darshan initially. lord came in form of mendicant and mohini. Only when they totally surrender did the lord reveal himself.

VS: Swamiji mentioned one more thing that many times we get an opportunity like them but do we make use of it.

Su: This lord will decide... is  tricky... because then what is the criterion for decision will arise.  This is in context  to what Ramkumar said.  What will get us closer.

The whole question of grace arises which may be out of context here...?

VS: Not sure though... there so many illogical coincidences that take place in our life in that case. Are we able to logically explain them...

KG: Ramkumarji's Q is mine too. Can Grace be earned?

VS: the Grace is always there. something to do with tuning.

SD: yes i agree with Vinod

Su: If you take the story.... they had a strong sense of doership... and enjoyership too.  At what point will the universe decide that I have gone around enough,  now time i see the Real

VS: If I tune to star plus or asianet thats what we see

Su: I also agree with him..

SD: you decide Sunita, not the universe

VS: Our efforts are to tune ourselves by Sadhana. and focus on what we want. And then we get what we focus on.

SD: correct. we are focusing on wrong things now. Or things we feel are important.

AV: But why would lord be partial, if the ascetics had lord shiva to guide them, so would everybody. I think maybe ascetics learned their lesson by recognizing the maya

KG: Did the ascetic s ever focus on the goal of Self-Knowledge?

VS: so true... stuckkkk like fevicol... He is calling... we say... lets see tomorrow

Su: Yup... but sometimes if we get stuck in the cycle,  unable to get out.  Where does my effort begin and grace start.  The boundaries seem blur. Or is my effort an other form of grace....

VS: We have our Gurudev guiding us.

SD: Grace is always there and with effort we will see it

Su: I think we are going in cycle right now. Are we digressing or in line?

VS: Our tuning has to continue... the Grace is always flowing. Our efforts have to continue.

They didn't focus according to the story Krishna... 😊

SD: "God's grace" redirects here. For the Bernard Malamud novel, see God's Grace. Divine grace is a theological term present in many religions. It has been defined as the divine influence which operates in humans to regenerate and sanctify, to inspire virtuous impulses, and to impart strength to endure trial and resist temptation;[1] and as an individual virtue or excellence of divine origin.[2]

VS: May be that was the only thing that was required for the tuning

SD: it regenerates something within us.

VS: Gaining siddhis is not simple too... it might have involved a lot of austerities.

JV: I have a question do those ascetic exists? I think all we need to do is accept every experience good or bad as his grace. Do your work assigned to you and sit back and enjoy the movie.

SD: yes jignesh mere spectator. don't get carried away. all an illusion

JV: When the movie is over so is the samsara. Have patience. Every movie has an end.

SD: nahi picture abhi baki hai mere dost. depending on the karma accumulated

VS: Karma is limited only to time and space. So easy to say.

JV: Yes swapna, so let's enjoy it. Some may have happy ending, some may have sad ending, some may end abruptly. whenever, you are here next, we should go for a movie.

Su: What was original question we were discussing?

AV: Haha good question

JV: The question is what is important! Can mere action and activity lead to realisation? What else is required?

VS: Back to the main topic. Though now the ascetics shortcomings and flaw in their thinking is clear - we still have to remember that The Lord himself came to help. So they must have earned enough merit for this. Does doing rituals (our day to day jobs) even out of ignorance earn us that merit?  What's the missing link?

AV: It's how you do your rituals

RP: This is what I think. The ascetics did all their karmas in line with their dharma . Though they were not pursuing self knowledge but they were very steadfast in their dharma. That's the clue - being steadfast in our dharma earns us that grace and leads to knowledge. ignorance + adharma leads us no where. We all have to do our day to day rituals - let's bring in dharma into it. It holds the key to both grace and knowledge

VS: Good point anna

SS: The last post of ramkumarji makes things clear. This is what i understand: there are two types of grace(kripa) general grace(samanya kripa) which is there on all. We are alive, breathing, acting....getting results of karma, enjoying/suffering. All is His Grace. Like sunlight which is there for all. Second type is Special Grace(vishesha kripa) or special grace. It is invoked by special actions or rituals of the performer. Like sunrays passing through convex lens focus the heat and burn the paper. These actions can be Done with or without intentions. If done with intention to get a specific blessing, one gets that. If done unintentionally as a ritual it gets a person merit and when merits accumulate it brings satsang. Like in case of ascetics. When done intentionally knowing the meaning etc then the person is absorbed in it and mind is purified, devotion arises apart from merit.

Also there are cases where if the Lord wants to make someone an instrument for larger benefit, the lord may choose someone and make that person fit to receive His Grace. Eg ratnakar becomes valmiki as ramayana has to happen through him.

In case of ascetics we can apply merit invoking satsang or Lord choosing them to educate mankind about limitation of action

RP: Got it Swamiji.

SS: For the question- Where does my effort begin and grace start? My effort is also HIS grace from a higher standpoint. From my standpoint i see them as different. In such a case let me do my karma in a dharmic way dedicating it to HIM selflessly. Slowly ego reduces and i start seeing my effort as an expression of His Grace.

SS: @Krishna: ascetics never focussed on goal of Self-knowledge because they either were not aware of it or were too attached to actions. Yet their actions being meritorious invoked satsang. When we are aware of Self-Knowledge and choose not to focus on it then its like closing our windows and doors and cry about darkness. Selfknowledge comes in our life by satsang which comes by HIS grace and our merit. To know it and take it lightly is to waste both - His Grace and our Merit.

Su: Thanks Swamiji.... got it.

VS: Thanks a lot Swamiji for clarifying the types of kripa and about rituals that can invoke His Grace even when done intentionally or unintentionally.

JV: Right actions leads to liberation, wrong actions binds back to the activity.

SS: Yes

VS: Swamiji... Does it mean that even if we do sinful actions, these special rituals still invoke His Grace?

JV: This can be experienced at all practical levels. E.g a simple thing in our life. Do your homework and you are free from it. Don't do it and it will linger with you all through out. As I speak I am working on something which I didn't do when I was supposed to.

SS: Sinful actions will have their results and one cant escape that. Secondly sinful actions pollute the mind. Hence the purity required for the ritual is lesser and so the grace invoked by the special ritual does not reach fully and gets filtered or negated depending on the intensity of the sinful act.

JV: No VS. Right action will have its own effect and wrong will have its own. Idea is that what you think is right intellectually tell your mind to do it. And that's it. Give a choice to mind and that's it. Even now when I am typing this because my mind has disgraced from actual work

VS: Thanks Swamiji n Jigs

Swamiji on your point, weren't Rakshasas from Puranas sincere in their pooja and rituals.  Is that the reason some attained Moksha?

SS: Which rakshasa got moksha?

VS: Ravana. Am I wrong?

SS: Ravana got liberated from the curse and went back to being the gatekeepers of vaikuntha. Jivanmukti or Self Knowledge he dint get

VS: Ohk so I picked a wrong context. Thank you very much Swamiji!!

KG: Swamiji, Is that the same case for all the asuras etc who r killed by Sri Krishna #basics

SS: Yes krishna. Jivanmukti is attained only by contemplating on Self. No other way

VS: So... is it that Ratnakara started his satkarmas later

JV: Yep. No other way. All right Actions can purify mind, so as to be able contemplate on self. That is all.

VS: Thnx jigs

KG: In case of ungalika (don't remember name) listening 2 Buddha and becoming his disciple. This killer hasn't done any dharmic work in that life atleast. How do we decipher his gaining the satsang? Correct me please.

SS: He was a good person and was fighting for a cause as a 'rebel' but was branded as a traitor and attrocities were committed on him. Hence he turned into angulimaal. Somtimes it also happens that merit has been earned in previous lives and that gets satsang or Lord's grace on the person.

KG: good 2 know Angulimaa facts.

JV: These also show the importance of a GURU and our faith in him. We all might be like angulimaal, just one step from awareness. Also, guru might be coming everyday. Its just that we might not be having enuf faith or distracted to recognise him. The day that happens, its fraction of a second.