GP: Going back to the exercise swamiji gave yesterday.
1. How much is enough for me and my family?
From one perspective, the goals and aspirations seem never-ending.
I feel that even when we are able to curb or balance out our individual wants and needs to some extent, we don't want to make any compromises when it comes to our family. We want to give our children the best possible. I think we sometimes feel that we might be doing our duty or not be fair on our families if we don't strive and set high goals for ourselves in terms of what we provide for our families.
Even as a home-maker I will have these same aspirations for my family.
In fact, I usually will take solace in the fact that I'm doing all this, not for myself, but for my family, and feel 'noble' about it. I take pride in the 'sacrifices' I make for my family. But the aspirations never get compromised. They keep changing shape and size and form.
AV: Am not so sure if we are only looking at work as providing for needs, be it individual or family. Isn't work itself purposeful?
GP: But when I pause and ask myself, 'is this really needed? How will this really help? Is it going to help me (or even my family members) evolve and grow?', then I am able to view things differently.
I'm including everything that we do for our families, material as well as emotional/ spiritual, etc.
The question I have to ask myself is, do I use my family as an excuse to keep accumulating and to not do my own personal saiyyam and sadhana?
SS: Important question to ask indeed
GP: As a personal exercise, what seems to help me in this regard, is to look at friends and family who are living, and managing very well, with much less. This does help me put things in perspective.
AV: Again I am not sure if it is a question of how much more or less..... I would look at it as how well I use whatever it may be that I have our earn..... what is the altar at which I pour it out....
GP: True
SS: In the story, the ascetics were not doing the rituals for family, but for themselves. They had acquired siddhis and powers but were still dissatisfied. So the question is when can i say i have done enough for myself and family and now i move on to the next stage of life focussing more on the journey within. Concept of vanaprastha and sannyas after grahastha was meant for this. Scriptures say that when the first grandchild is 10yrs old then one must turn to vanaprastha and learn to withdraw.
GP: As for what tempts me at the sensory level, I have noticed this very interesting thing : I never feel I'm a slave to any of my senses. I feel I'm always in control and can refrain any time it need be!
Su: Iam single and don't worry about providing for anyone dependent on me because there is no one depending on me, atleast materially. What I earn is for myself, yet if I ask how much is enough, it's a tough question to answer. Because I say, in old age when no one is there will I have enough to pay medical bills and other things. I don't want to depend on anyone.
So I think the question is not about family or responsibility, we are never ready to look in because we are so convinced that real life and it's purpose is outside of us... in all our external pursuits. Our happiness is currently dependent on things we acquire and ppl we love. So like the ascetics who believed more siddhis meaning more happiness, we believe that money, children's welfare and family's security, in my case being responsible and providing for myself etc will make me happy and is my duty . I have to pursue it. This conviction brings about guilt even if we think of focussing elsewhere. The balance between focusing on my evolution and my duty towards my family is important. I don't think one has to sacrifice one for the other.
SS: True
Su: I don't get it GP, are you saying you are really in control. Or is it just a feeling.....
GP: I'm just saying our minds play such wonderful tricks on us. Do we ever feel we are a slave to our senses?
Su: I do... 😟
There are many times I wonder....what a slave my mind has become. Disgusted with its weakness and at the same time unable to become free, even though the key to this freedom is largely in my hands.
Sometimes I really sit and wonder at this contradiction and it's power over me....
SS: Mind does present an illusion of self-control to escape sadhana but when we start enquiring and list down our sensory attachments we become aware and can take steps to overcome them. Eg hot food, fried food, being on the computer, reading newspaper in the morning putting aside other imp things etc are some things im striving to overcome. Till sometime ago i was not even aware.
Su: Some time ago I read an example by paramacharya, he said it's only when you attempt to remove a nail, you realize how deep it has gone into the wood/wall. From the outside it may look small. So if you want to know how deep your habits have gone into you, try removing some of them. You may be surprised that what you thought is difficult is easily given up and what you thought would be easy is the most deeply driven in and refuses to come out...
RP: Good one SS
SS: Upadesha saar presents the essence of 4 yogas and indicates the importance of Self Knowledge and vision of oneness that each of the yogas lead to. We begin the text today by invoking HIS Grace and blessings of Sri Ramana Maharshi and Guru Parampara.
Om Shri Paramaatmane namaha
Om Namo Bhagavate Ramanaaya
Om Shri Gurubhyo Namaha
Verse 1:
कर्तुराज्ञया प्राप्यते फलम् ।
कर्म किं परम् कर्म तज्जडम्् ।।
By the command of the Lord(kartu) the fruits of actions are gained. Then how is action supreme? That action is inert.
Generally any composition begins with an invocation by the author. Here there is no separate invocation. The first word itself is a remembrance of the Lord(kartu) and serves as the invocation
VS: Hari Om everyone! My answers to the exercise
1. how much is enough for me and family? Not able to still determine what is enough. Whatever we save is useful during an emergency... expenses for a family function... medical emergencies... so not able to decide what or how much is enough. About wasteful expenditure... yes there is some amount spent on recreation... for the family or child which again is not too much. Greed is definitely there... but the brooding over what is not there is less.
2. What tempts me at the sensory level? Do i enjoy it as a master or a slave?
I have not won over my senses. The sense mastery works during a regular fasting day. But has not yet become a lifestyle. There are days when there's control while there are some when its not in control or out of control. That way I Am an Asura.
3. What am i doing for sense-mastery?
trying to Undertake regular fasts. Conscious introspection and reminder of what I overdid during the day.
SS: The verse gives rise to the following questions:
1. Does the Lord exist?
2. Why does result come by His command? Does the Lord control everything?
3. What is karma?
4. Why is it not supreme if karma gives karmaphala and all development is because if that?
5. Why is karma called inert?
Lets take them up one by one. Swami Vivekanandaji said- a confirmed atheist is better than a confused theist. 1. Does the Lord exist? You are welcome to say NO or YES. Either ways give the reasoning
VS: Swamiji... Lord does exist for sure because there is a power or life principle behind every activity in everything in the world.
SD: There is some force at work which I am unable to see but I know it exists. That's what I call GOD
Su: My ideas are same as Swapna's.
VS: Even anything that we might call man made... also has a force in the man to perform the discovery or invention
Su: I seem to have an emotional bonding with this force, because I feel protected and loved when I think of this force that I call God...so I firmly believe God exists. But what or who is that force... not very clear.
VS: Agree Sunitha
SS: Why cant that force be nature? Why Bring God into picture? May be God is just a creation of human mind to explain the inexplicable. Eg. Cavemen thought lightning is sent by God. When modern man understood the cause through science God was not necessary any more
Emotional bond may be my imagination if im not clear about God
VS: I feel very comfortable sharing emotions to this force with a form. And I am silent when I feel the force as formless
Su: True Swamiji, emotional bonding may be my imagination.
Giving a form to this force makes it easier for the mind to relate. Jagadeeshwara is easier to Love than abstract nature
SS: If the mind does not know who jagadeeshwara is, the association will be limited.
Su: But then when Iam not even sure who or what is God... how can I say He is God
SS: Exactly
KG: NO. If something exists other than me then it cannot be Ultimate. It needs a creator and so on. At present I identify myself separately. So cannot prove to myself that God exists. But heart or emotional mind believes strongly in a concept.
AM: Su: I think our relationship with God is largely learnt. We have never questioned it. Simply believed what was told to us.
SS: Thats what vivekanandaji said.
KG: Difficult 2 believe that someone enjoys this Leela when I am the puppet 😊
SS: There is no leela. Only cause and effect.
Puppet example has a limitation that puppeteer and puppet are different. Waker and dreamer is a better example.
But lets get back to the question of does God exist before we even think about leela etc.
KG: Ok... since various personalities that we respect and have reverence say that they experience GOD, feel like me too can give it a genuine shot.
VS: I have ti go from known to unknown so I hv to give a form
Su: Now when I think, Iam not even sure if I can say with conviction that God exists, if Iam not sure who or what God is....😟
VS: Even if it is cause n effect... there must be someone running the automated accounting system
I'll think for some time n get back what I exactly feel
SD: Yes it is a form of nature. for our convenience we give it a name. I too get reassurance when i think about it. there is something at play.
VS: 1. We love, fear or respect that is more powerful in all aspects. A higher power as prana shakti helps me do all my activities automatically. So the higher power is what I love, fear n respect. I have been taught that is Swami, Umachi, Bhagwan, Deivam etc.
So for me that power exists. The name is God.
SD: I don't fear it as I know it will never harm me. It only guides. call it an inner voice or whatever
yes for me also. the force exists
right from blooming of flowers to a baby being born there is something at play
Su: Exactly! You have taught Vinod.. But what about your own original thoughts about God. Does It/He/She exists?
AM: VS: I do fear like I fear to be punished by a teacher or parents for doing something wrong. I feel That Force is watching n calculating
VS: Yes I said as Prana shakti... Is just one example
Difficult to enumerate
Su: After Swamiji's question, Iam thinking, if I have Iam unclear of what a thing is, with what confidence can I say it exists!!
SD: sunitha as a child i went with the flow. the fear was tete. you have to do this you have to do that or god will be angry
VS: One shakti that is moving my thumb fingers around the alphabets...
SD: now i know that's not true. i don't have to fast or light the lamp or compulsory go to temple to feel IT
I know i don't have to appease that power
VS: For me He exists... how bhaav I give Him is the issue
SD: Gurudev in one of HIS letters to my mom had said " He doesn't care if you fast or feast"
Su: I also 'feel' and choose to believe God exists, but when I start thinking, I start questioning....
Iam not questioning the existence of God, because my mind refuses to entertain the idea of the non existence of God. What I wonder is how easily we form believes without questioning the basics. Then I try to answer questions to fit my precondition mind.
I also think without knowing what is this God.... one cannot be sure if God exists
SA: The very act of thinking and questioning clarifys that a power exists and which controls our every action.
Since we have been raised from childhood with the thinking that if you don't do this God is there who watches you and he/she will be angry.
It becomes difficult for us to change the perception of God from an idol worship to his infinite existence.
VS: Nice quote Swapna. I agree but I do it for my satisfaction and not for God's satisfaction.
Agree Subhash... as if God had no job but to cut our nose and put chilli powder😝
Sunitha... Somewhere you have triggered the thought whether we have a preconditioned mind when we say this. But any discussions that we do is preconditioned. Some have become understanding because someone told n some because we tried n tested it.
SD: The question was, does the Lord exist? my ans is an emphatic yes
VS: I am going to another tangent now
Did we discuss about God in terms of situations(at least I did) that we discussed as illusions in the initial classes/discussions
If in that case I said everything is because of God and my thoughts, situations, emotions are all Maya
Then how do I relate to God or His existence
Feel free to tell me, oh Gods, if I am digressing
Su: Does God exists, after some thinking....
I know He/She/It exists, but since I don't know who that is, I question my belief. And suddenly I think my relationship with the God Will never be as it should be as I don't know what He is.
And if I don't know who or what His true nature is, I will keep believing what I was taught to believe and my relationship with Him will never be fulfilled and complete.
SS: Vedanta gives us clear understanding of God and the nature of God. There is no ambiguity or confusion in thinking. If we think about Brahman, Ishwara, Ishta Devata, then everything will be clear.
Su: So then the difference between these three has to be clear.
SS: Yes
Since Creation is the effect, there has to be a cause. What can be the cause? Anything finite can it be the cause of the creation?
Su: In Kindle Life Gurudev gives the example of a cloth and embroidery of a family on it. The embroidery is put in the same thread as the thread used to weave the cloth. Then I think it goes like this, the thread is Brahman, cloth jagat, the family jeevas (not sure if Iam right) . But where is ishwara in this?
SS: Cotton is Brahman. Thread made from it is ishwara. Scenary is jagat. Individual entities are jeeva
Su: Oh yes!!
Effects are cause itself in different forms.
Second law that Gurudev mentions
SD: so is ishwara a name we give to the infinite which is brahman ?
SS: Its not just a difference of name. They refer to same entity but there is a lot of difference.
SD: Can you pls explain.
SS: My job is not to give answers but make people think and let them arrive at answers. Pl answer my question about the cause of creation.
SD: nothing finite can be the cause. it is infinite. i understand that. with regard to above eg. i was wondering. the differentiation is for our understanding i think.
SS: Can infinite be the cause really?
Examples always have limitations. Cotton is the basic substance. By itself it cannot be used to make a scenary. It has to be made into thread first and then used.
Su: Infinite pervades everything, do how can it be the cause of anything. What IT causes will also be IT only.
SS: Infinite is changeless because it is beyond time space and causation. So by itself Infinite cannot be the cause of creation. But since we see the creation we say that Infinite is the cause of the creation. Like we say rope is the cause of snake. Rope cannot produce the snake actually.
The Infinite which is changeless is called Brahman. In it there is no duality and no creation.
Yet we see creation. So how do we explain the cause? Hence vedanta says Power of Brahman is Maya or Prakriti and using that power Brahman becomes Ishwara. Brahman + Maya = Ishwara.
This Ishwara is called the creator sustainer destroyer because using the 3 gunas of maya the creator projects the 5 elements and the subsequent creation.
Nature of this ishwara is sarvajna - omniscient sarva shaktimaan- omnipotent and sarvavyaapi - omnipresent. Ishwara alone manifests as this whole creation and is in the heart of all beings
Hence God is not just some imagination of human being but the very 'sentient-cause' of the creation. Nature and God are not synonymous. God or Ishwara is consciousness. Nature is Prakriti or maya and is inert. In the world we see that anything inert cannot function on its own. A sentient force/being is necessary to operate it
SD: So ishwara is only maya at play.
Su: So can we say that Maya allowes Brahman to manifest as Ishwara.
SS: Since we cannot relate to the omnipresent Ishwara, out of Compassion, Ishwara manifests in various forms. These are forms of brahma, vishnu, mahesh, durga, saraswati etc. These are Divine forms of the Lord. Have been experienced by Rishis who are pure minded. This is the concept of Ishta devata. So that using a form we can invoke the Divine and surrender the ego. When that Lord decides to manifest in physical form like rama or krishna then we call it as Avataar. Avataar can also be used as ishta devata
SD: its a tool the infinite uses for us to see the finite
SS: Maya does not allow brahman but brahman uses maya to assume identity as Ishwara.
Ishwara controls maya and not the other way
SD: correct. question is why?
Why does Brahman decide to stage this play in which we then get roles to enact
Su: When you say why Brahman decides, you are attributing adjectives to it...
Can infinite beyond time and space have attributes?
SS: I said earlier that Brahman does nothing. You and i see the creation and so vedanta gives an explanation. The question why did rope choose to create the snake is wrong.
Su: It has to 'just be'
SS: Science also cannot answer why. Eg. speed of light is only a specific speed. Why not more or less?
Su: But if I was not there the question of me seeing snake in rope will not arise. Why am I there is the question..
SS: Enough for today. Think more. We continue tomorrow. Nisha swasti. 😴
SD: Hmmm
Su: Ok thanks Swamiji..
SD: yes suni same question in my head
Su: I always have this question
I did not ask to be created
Why create me only to tell me now realize you are the creator 😡
SD: No to tell you you are an illusion.
This is fascinating
Su: Challo Hari Om
I will do some thinking and get back tomorrow.
VS: Nice discussion. Thanks Swamiji for answering my questions in the course of explanation. At this point I feel I have to accept this part... because its the property of Brahman or Ishwara. And Maya is a tool.
Hari Om all.
1. How much is enough for me and my family?
From one perspective, the goals and aspirations seem never-ending.
I feel that even when we are able to curb or balance out our individual wants and needs to some extent, we don't want to make any compromises when it comes to our family. We want to give our children the best possible. I think we sometimes feel that we might be doing our duty or not be fair on our families if we don't strive and set high goals for ourselves in terms of what we provide for our families.
Even as a home-maker I will have these same aspirations for my family.
In fact, I usually will take solace in the fact that I'm doing all this, not for myself, but for my family, and feel 'noble' about it. I take pride in the 'sacrifices' I make for my family. But the aspirations never get compromised. They keep changing shape and size and form.
AV: Am not so sure if we are only looking at work as providing for needs, be it individual or family. Isn't work itself purposeful?
GP: But when I pause and ask myself, 'is this really needed? How will this really help? Is it going to help me (or even my family members) evolve and grow?', then I am able to view things differently.
I'm including everything that we do for our families, material as well as emotional/ spiritual, etc.
The question I have to ask myself is, do I use my family as an excuse to keep accumulating and to not do my own personal saiyyam and sadhana?
SS: Important question to ask indeed
GP: As a personal exercise, what seems to help me in this regard, is to look at friends and family who are living, and managing very well, with much less. This does help me put things in perspective.
AV: Again I am not sure if it is a question of how much more or less..... I would look at it as how well I use whatever it may be that I have our earn..... what is the altar at which I pour it out....
GP: True
SS: In the story, the ascetics were not doing the rituals for family, but for themselves. They had acquired siddhis and powers but were still dissatisfied. So the question is when can i say i have done enough for myself and family and now i move on to the next stage of life focussing more on the journey within. Concept of vanaprastha and sannyas after grahastha was meant for this. Scriptures say that when the first grandchild is 10yrs old then one must turn to vanaprastha and learn to withdraw.
GP: As for what tempts me at the sensory level, I have noticed this very interesting thing : I never feel I'm a slave to any of my senses. I feel I'm always in control and can refrain any time it need be!
Su: Iam single and don't worry about providing for anyone dependent on me because there is no one depending on me, atleast materially. What I earn is for myself, yet if I ask how much is enough, it's a tough question to answer. Because I say, in old age when no one is there will I have enough to pay medical bills and other things. I don't want to depend on anyone.
So I think the question is not about family or responsibility, we are never ready to look in because we are so convinced that real life and it's purpose is outside of us... in all our external pursuits. Our happiness is currently dependent on things we acquire and ppl we love. So like the ascetics who believed more siddhis meaning more happiness, we believe that money, children's welfare and family's security, in my case being responsible and providing for myself etc will make me happy and is my duty . I have to pursue it. This conviction brings about guilt even if we think of focussing elsewhere. The balance between focusing on my evolution and my duty towards my family is important. I don't think one has to sacrifice one for the other.
SS: True
Su: I don't get it GP, are you saying you are really in control. Or is it just a feeling.....
GP: I'm just saying our minds play such wonderful tricks on us. Do we ever feel we are a slave to our senses?
Su: I do... 😟
There are many times I wonder....what a slave my mind has become. Disgusted with its weakness and at the same time unable to become free, even though the key to this freedom is largely in my hands.
Sometimes I really sit and wonder at this contradiction and it's power over me....
SS: Mind does present an illusion of self-control to escape sadhana but when we start enquiring and list down our sensory attachments we become aware and can take steps to overcome them. Eg hot food, fried food, being on the computer, reading newspaper in the morning putting aside other imp things etc are some things im striving to overcome. Till sometime ago i was not even aware.
Su: Some time ago I read an example by paramacharya, he said it's only when you attempt to remove a nail, you realize how deep it has gone into the wood/wall. From the outside it may look small. So if you want to know how deep your habits have gone into you, try removing some of them. You may be surprised that what you thought is difficult is easily given up and what you thought would be easy is the most deeply driven in and refuses to come out...
RP: Good one SS
SS: Upadesha saar presents the essence of 4 yogas and indicates the importance of Self Knowledge and vision of oneness that each of the yogas lead to. We begin the text today by invoking HIS Grace and blessings of Sri Ramana Maharshi and Guru Parampara.
Om Shri Paramaatmane namaha
Om Namo Bhagavate Ramanaaya
Om Shri Gurubhyo Namaha
Verse 1:
कर्तुराज्ञया प्राप्यते फलम् ।
कर्म किं परम् कर्म तज्जडम्् ।।
By the command of the Lord(kartu) the fruits of actions are gained. Then how is action supreme? That action is inert.
Generally any composition begins with an invocation by the author. Here there is no separate invocation. The first word itself is a remembrance of the Lord(kartu) and serves as the invocation
VS: Hari Om everyone! My answers to the exercise
1. how much is enough for me and family? Not able to still determine what is enough. Whatever we save is useful during an emergency... expenses for a family function... medical emergencies... so not able to decide what or how much is enough. About wasteful expenditure... yes there is some amount spent on recreation... for the family or child which again is not too much. Greed is definitely there... but the brooding over what is not there is less.
2. What tempts me at the sensory level? Do i enjoy it as a master or a slave?
I have not won over my senses. The sense mastery works during a regular fasting day. But has not yet become a lifestyle. There are days when there's control while there are some when its not in control or out of control. That way I Am an Asura.
3. What am i doing for sense-mastery?
trying to Undertake regular fasts. Conscious introspection and reminder of what I overdid during the day.
SS: The verse gives rise to the following questions:
1. Does the Lord exist?
2. Why does result come by His command? Does the Lord control everything?
3. What is karma?
4. Why is it not supreme if karma gives karmaphala and all development is because if that?
5. Why is karma called inert?
Lets take them up one by one. Swami Vivekanandaji said- a confirmed atheist is better than a confused theist. 1. Does the Lord exist? You are welcome to say NO or YES. Either ways give the reasoning
VS: Swamiji... Lord does exist for sure because there is a power or life principle behind every activity in everything in the world.
SD: There is some force at work which I am unable to see but I know it exists. That's what I call GOD
Su: My ideas are same as Swapna's.
VS: Even anything that we might call man made... also has a force in the man to perform the discovery or invention
Su: I seem to have an emotional bonding with this force, because I feel protected and loved when I think of this force that I call God...so I firmly believe God exists. But what or who is that force... not very clear.
VS: Agree Sunitha
SS: Why cant that force be nature? Why Bring God into picture? May be God is just a creation of human mind to explain the inexplicable. Eg. Cavemen thought lightning is sent by God. When modern man understood the cause through science God was not necessary any more
Emotional bond may be my imagination if im not clear about God
VS: I feel very comfortable sharing emotions to this force with a form. And I am silent when I feel the force as formless
Su: True Swamiji, emotional bonding may be my imagination.
Giving a form to this force makes it easier for the mind to relate. Jagadeeshwara is easier to Love than abstract nature
SS: If the mind does not know who jagadeeshwara is, the association will be limited.
Su: But then when Iam not even sure who or what is God... how can I say He is God
SS: Exactly
KG: NO. If something exists other than me then it cannot be Ultimate. It needs a creator and so on. At present I identify myself separately. So cannot prove to myself that God exists. But heart or emotional mind believes strongly in a concept.
AM: Su: I think our relationship with God is largely learnt. We have never questioned it. Simply believed what was told to us.
SS: Thats what vivekanandaji said.
KG: Difficult 2 believe that someone enjoys this Leela when I am the puppet 😊
SS: There is no leela. Only cause and effect.
Puppet example has a limitation that puppeteer and puppet are different. Waker and dreamer is a better example.
But lets get back to the question of does God exist before we even think about leela etc.
KG: Ok... since various personalities that we respect and have reverence say that they experience GOD, feel like me too can give it a genuine shot.
VS: I have ti go from known to unknown so I hv to give a form
Su: Now when I think, Iam not even sure if I can say with conviction that God exists, if Iam not sure who or what God is....😟
VS: Even if it is cause n effect... there must be someone running the automated accounting system
I'll think for some time n get back what I exactly feel
SD: Yes it is a form of nature. for our convenience we give it a name. I too get reassurance when i think about it. there is something at play.
VS: 1. We love, fear or respect that is more powerful in all aspects. A higher power as prana shakti helps me do all my activities automatically. So the higher power is what I love, fear n respect. I have been taught that is Swami, Umachi, Bhagwan, Deivam etc.
So for me that power exists. The name is God.
SD: I don't fear it as I know it will never harm me. It only guides. call it an inner voice or whatever
yes for me also. the force exists
right from blooming of flowers to a baby being born there is something at play
Su: Exactly! You have taught Vinod.. But what about your own original thoughts about God. Does It/He/She exists?
AM: VS: I do fear like I fear to be punished by a teacher or parents for doing something wrong. I feel That Force is watching n calculating
VS: Yes I said as Prana shakti... Is just one example
Difficult to enumerate
Su: After Swamiji's question, Iam thinking, if I have Iam unclear of what a thing is, with what confidence can I say it exists!!
SD: sunitha as a child i went with the flow. the fear was tete. you have to do this you have to do that or god will be angry
VS: One shakti that is moving my thumb fingers around the alphabets...
SD: now i know that's not true. i don't have to fast or light the lamp or compulsory go to temple to feel IT
I know i don't have to appease that power
VS: For me He exists... how bhaav I give Him is the issue
SD: Gurudev in one of HIS letters to my mom had said " He doesn't care if you fast or feast"
Su: I also 'feel' and choose to believe God exists, but when I start thinking, I start questioning....
Iam not questioning the existence of God, because my mind refuses to entertain the idea of the non existence of God. What I wonder is how easily we form believes without questioning the basics. Then I try to answer questions to fit my precondition mind.
I also think without knowing what is this God.... one cannot be sure if God exists
SA: The very act of thinking and questioning clarifys that a power exists and which controls our every action.
Since we have been raised from childhood with the thinking that if you don't do this God is there who watches you and he/she will be angry.
It becomes difficult for us to change the perception of God from an idol worship to his infinite existence.
VS: Nice quote Swapna. I agree but I do it for my satisfaction and not for God's satisfaction.
Agree Subhash... as if God had no job but to cut our nose and put chilli powder😝
Sunitha... Somewhere you have triggered the thought whether we have a preconditioned mind when we say this. But any discussions that we do is preconditioned. Some have become understanding because someone told n some because we tried n tested it.
SD: The question was, does the Lord exist? my ans is an emphatic yes
VS: I am going to another tangent now
Did we discuss about God in terms of situations(at least I did) that we discussed as illusions in the initial classes/discussions
If in that case I said everything is because of God and my thoughts, situations, emotions are all Maya
Then how do I relate to God or His existence
Feel free to tell me, oh Gods, if I am digressing
Su: Does God exists, after some thinking....
I know He/She/It exists, but since I don't know who that is, I question my belief. And suddenly I think my relationship with the God Will never be as it should be as I don't know what He is.
And if I don't know who or what His true nature is, I will keep believing what I was taught to believe and my relationship with Him will never be fulfilled and complete.
SS: Vedanta gives us clear understanding of God and the nature of God. There is no ambiguity or confusion in thinking. If we think about Brahman, Ishwara, Ishta Devata, then everything will be clear.
Su: So then the difference between these three has to be clear.
SS: Yes
Since Creation is the effect, there has to be a cause. What can be the cause? Anything finite can it be the cause of the creation?
Su: In Kindle Life Gurudev gives the example of a cloth and embroidery of a family on it. The embroidery is put in the same thread as the thread used to weave the cloth. Then I think it goes like this, the thread is Brahman, cloth jagat, the family jeevas (not sure if Iam right) . But where is ishwara in this?
SS: Cotton is Brahman. Thread made from it is ishwara. Scenary is jagat. Individual entities are jeeva
Su: Oh yes!!
Effects are cause itself in different forms.
Second law that Gurudev mentions
SD: so is ishwara a name we give to the infinite which is brahman ?
SS: Its not just a difference of name. They refer to same entity but there is a lot of difference.
SD: Can you pls explain.
SS: My job is not to give answers but make people think and let them arrive at answers. Pl answer my question about the cause of creation.
SD: nothing finite can be the cause. it is infinite. i understand that. with regard to above eg. i was wondering. the differentiation is for our understanding i think.
SS: Can infinite be the cause really?
Examples always have limitations. Cotton is the basic substance. By itself it cannot be used to make a scenary. It has to be made into thread first and then used.
Su: Infinite pervades everything, do how can it be the cause of anything. What IT causes will also be IT only.
SS: Infinite is changeless because it is beyond time space and causation. So by itself Infinite cannot be the cause of creation. But since we see the creation we say that Infinite is the cause of the creation. Like we say rope is the cause of snake. Rope cannot produce the snake actually.
The Infinite which is changeless is called Brahman. In it there is no duality and no creation.
Yet we see creation. So how do we explain the cause? Hence vedanta says Power of Brahman is Maya or Prakriti and using that power Brahman becomes Ishwara. Brahman + Maya = Ishwara.
This Ishwara is called the creator sustainer destroyer because using the 3 gunas of maya the creator projects the 5 elements and the subsequent creation.
Nature of this ishwara is sarvajna - omniscient sarva shaktimaan- omnipotent and sarvavyaapi - omnipresent. Ishwara alone manifests as this whole creation and is in the heart of all beings
Hence God is not just some imagination of human being but the very 'sentient-cause' of the creation. Nature and God are not synonymous. God or Ishwara is consciousness. Nature is Prakriti or maya and is inert. In the world we see that anything inert cannot function on its own. A sentient force/being is necessary to operate it
SD: So ishwara is only maya at play.
Su: So can we say that Maya allowes Brahman to manifest as Ishwara.
SS: Since we cannot relate to the omnipresent Ishwara, out of Compassion, Ishwara manifests in various forms. These are forms of brahma, vishnu, mahesh, durga, saraswati etc. These are Divine forms of the Lord. Have been experienced by Rishis who are pure minded. This is the concept of Ishta devata. So that using a form we can invoke the Divine and surrender the ego. When that Lord decides to manifest in physical form like rama or krishna then we call it as Avataar. Avataar can also be used as ishta devata
SD: its a tool the infinite uses for us to see the finite
SS: Maya does not allow brahman but brahman uses maya to assume identity as Ishwara.
Ishwara controls maya and not the other way
SD: correct. question is why?
Why does Brahman decide to stage this play in which we then get roles to enact
Su: When you say why Brahman decides, you are attributing adjectives to it...
Can infinite beyond time and space have attributes?
SS: I said earlier that Brahman does nothing. You and i see the creation and so vedanta gives an explanation. The question why did rope choose to create the snake is wrong.
Su: It has to 'just be'
SS: Science also cannot answer why. Eg. speed of light is only a specific speed. Why not more or less?
Su: But if I was not there the question of me seeing snake in rope will not arise. Why am I there is the question..
SS: Enough for today. Think more. We continue tomorrow. Nisha swasti. 😴
SD: Hmmm
Su: Ok thanks Swamiji..
SD: yes suni same question in my head
Su: I always have this question
I did not ask to be created
Why create me only to tell me now realize you are the creator 😡
SD: No to tell you you are an illusion.
This is fascinating
Su: Challo Hari Om
I will do some thinking and get back tomorrow.
VS: Nice discussion. Thanks Swamiji for answering my questions in the course of explanation. At this point I feel I have to accept this part... because its the property of Brahman or Ishwara. And Maya is a tool.
Hari Om all.
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