GP : Swamiji, we still have to answer the 3 questions
SS : Yes lets reflect on the 3 questions.
RP : Swamiji your question is worded such that the answer has to be singular and not plural. Example what do you want rather than what are the things you want from life.
Is that intentional ?
All 3 qns.
SS : Yes absolutely intentional. Also these are very fundamental questions. Need deeper thinking and awareness of what one feels about them. Hence i said answer with heart and not head.
For those joining in just now here are the questions: think about three basic questions. 1. What do i really seek in life? 2. From where do i get it? 3. How do i get it?
GP : 1. I seek for a life where all my desires would be fulfilled. 2. I don't get it. I seek for this from the world. 3. I strive in the world to fulfil those desires.
1. If I'm seeking a life where all my desires are fulfilled, then it means I'm seeking contentment, and a state where there will be no more desires. Because only then will I be really content and there will be no more seeking.
So I'm seeking a state where I'm no longer seeking anything.
RP : So you seek a life without fire (desire) by continuously adding oil to the fire.
Su : When I read the question the first word that came to my mind peace... I want to be peaceful and not have a agitated mind. Right now conducive circumstances, things, ppl and achieveing desires give me that fulfilled feeling which I mistake for peace of mind.... but I want to be in that state all the time.... so that means I should get what I want all the time!!
To undo this loop will take a shift in perspective... The shift from intellectual information to knowledge will take gigantic effort...
But we have start with studies and get clarity so that we are correctly informed.
VS : Hari Om! enjoyed the wonderful conversations. I practised doing one thing at a time today... my work was much smoother. also reminded myself of illusions at various occasions... good as well as depressing. noticed I am getting into a state of detachment and peaceful.
1. What do i really seek in life?I am actually seeking nothing in my heart but I desire for a million things... 2. From where do i get it... from within...? 3. How do i get it?... by doing nothing
But I want to be consistent in what I did today.
But... I want to confess... I enjoyed a nice samosa... and indulged in it and enjoyed every little taste... but said... "illusion hai toh kya hua... its YUMMY"
SD : 1. What do I seek in life?
To be happy
2. Where do I get it?
In things, people events that I feel will give me that happiness.
3. How do I get it?
From being happy within. Internally there has to be an equilibrium.
Still working on the illusion exercise and its getting a teensy weensy bit easier now.
KG : When I ponder.....
1. I am constantly seeking validation (expecting all 2 be positive).
2. I seek 2 get it from the part of world that matters 2 me.
3. By doing things in the world.
Even joining this group was 2 keep getting +ve validation from sadhaks around ;) yes this is a great thing dude! Ha!
Am pondering still.... by seeking this validation I am I not seeking some kind of satisfaction that tends 2 make me full. Is it called peace or happiness...
NP : 1. What I seek in life is freedom from my mental bondage. Which is at the moment not letting me make the most of my life.
2. It is upto me alone. I get it by changing my outlook
3. I can get it by discipline, feeding my mind with the right knowledge, and mananam
Su : Today morning after some thought I realize that what I seek..
Clean my mind off its unhealthy habits, default autopilot mode of operation, I seek a mind which will cooperate with me and my intellect... I seek a mind like that which will remain calm, with a sense of contentment that becomes it's nature rather than seek it from things outside of me.
Where do I get it from? Has to come from within me...
How do I get it?
Study, get clarity which comes with studies. Reflect and make what I studied a part of my value system, practice and become convinced and change my self identity..... long and very tough journey....
GP: Sunitha, Neelima, and others. I agree with all of you. If I were to answer the questions from my head, these would be my responses as well. But when I look at my day-to-day and answer from my heart, it seems I am still seeking to fulfil my desires. My desires might have changed over time and with experience and learning. But I am still seeking to fulfil them.
NP : Gp, I really feel weighed down by all the expectations desires wants needs etc that I face at all levels, physical emotional etc. I know it is because of my mind. Because there r these very very very very rare moments, when my mind is relatively calmer for a few seconds it's obvious that it is all in my mind. And I know if only I could just control it. 😀 I don't want to dance to its tune though that is all that I do
Su : Agree GP.... on a day to day basis I seek to fulfill my desires and my actions and motive are largely influenced by my desires only. But in the background of all that there is a desire to sweep the mind of these desires and resulting crowd of thoughts, anxiety etc and get this peace and calm.
That is a desire that's always there along with the multitude of other desire. But that one desire is not strong enough to take over and manage the others which presently dominate.
Though I wonder if Iam merely intellectualizing by saying all this.
NG : What do I seek - I seek to live fearlessly but sensitively every moment without worrying about consequences or loss of possessions, relationships, reputation etc and with an assurance that every action of mine is the right one at that moment
Where do I get it- guess it can come only from within and if the mind is clear calm and pure and if there is no sense of insecurity/ inadequacy within me
How do I get it - by working towards developing such a mind...tall order!!!
VS : Hari om all... Agree gp bhaiya. Frankly in my case I feel there is a stark difference between what I seek n what I desire. Not sure if my actions point to what I seek either.
And somehow I feel that I need to do nothing to achieve what I seek.
And then I get a thought if this SPRITE attitude might pull me into laziness or tamasicness.
KG : How do we check if we are saying from head or heart? Any simple litmus test?
SS : When we say from head only, we dont feel much about it and so we dont seek it as intensely as we would if we felt for it.
SD : Why do I do things? I need to have the feeling of acceptance and validation and why? because I want to be happy.
Su : So that means if Iam aware of what I should be ideally doing but not doing it.... it's at an intellectual level only.
As Guruji once said knowledge gives the skill but it's emotions that motivate us to act.
SS : Yes sunitha
Its actually incomplete even at intellectual level because if it was complete then it would move us emotionally too.
VS : So its not only that the mind should be available for the intellect. It should be vice versa as well.
SS : Yes it can be both ways. Thats an integrated personality.
Su : True.... strong intellectual conviction can shake some foundations and create an emotional atmosphere to act.
Very interesting....
How delicate the mind intellect balance is...
VS : Swamiji I have one question on the cycle you sent
The knowledge cycle makes me feel its a vicious circle. Shouldn't we seek to get out of it.
SS : Example: intellectually we know we must exercise. Yet we dont. Why? Attachment to body, sleep, work, etc. This makes the intellectual knowledge incomplete and it does not become conviction. When a serious disease is threatening or someone makes fun of our weight, we are able to put aside everything and exercise. Why? Bec the knowledge became conviction, moved my emotions and i act.
VS : And y get into the cycle anyway if we have to get out.
Or is it that we are stuck in it already. So v hv to get out
SS : We already are in the cycle vinod. If we feel we need to get out then we Should. Most are comfortable where they are and many not even aware of the cycle.
VS : Apt example Swamiji... just made for me
Su : I read this somewhere... "beliefs are what we argue for, convictions are what we die for"
SD : Are we already in this cycle at the time of birth?
SS : Nice quote.
Birth is the result of this cycle
SD : Yes so this cycle is always present and we have the choice to get in or get out is it?
VS : So we need to know what the cycle is in order to get out. Like Abhimanyu?
Also there should be a willingness to get out.
So can v call it staying in our comfort zone?
I need to confess if I have any conviction I'll die for.
SS : Yes swapna. Every moment we have that choice. Like u can walk out of a boring movie. Interesting part is we keep cribbing that its boring but continue to sit there and not only that, come back again and again for the same boring experience. Thats the power of attachment.
We live by our convictions and not by our knowledge. Thats why the gap between knowing and doing. Eg. We have the knowledge that Happiness is not outside but our conviction says its outside. Hence we seek it outside.
So it is important to examine our convictions and not just keep acquiring knowledge.
Transformation of knowledge into conviction needs us to drop our attachments, do right thinking and live in alertness. Then such a personality is called integrated personality. To develop this personality is the purpose of all our actions.
NG : Its because we do not really believe its boring. Or that we do not know or believe that there is something higher that we can go to / aspire for
SS : True nirupamaji
NG : Or maybe there is no sense of urgency...I think somewhere I know and am convinced but there is no deadline here so am just wandering😳
VS : So true... comfortable and stuck
If not this birth next birth
Su : How to become convinced? How does the knowledge transform into conviction? I think we are deluded that we are convinced....
SS : Exercise for today: whatever we do, lets do it with integration. Bring feeling and thinking together. Be aware what you feel about the work and what thoughts come about it. If either is missing, invoke it. Eg. While doing work be aware if you feel the joy or satisfaction and also if your thoughts are single pointedly absorbed in the work.
NG : Yes actually Sunitha...if we truly knew and are convinced we will feel the urgency too!!
SS : Work becomes mechanical when feeling thinking and doing get separated. When they come together we love our work.
VS : Like protectiveness about a beloved... son, brother, , parents, wife, , friends
NG : How can we transform knowledge to conviction?
VS : What can we love about work Swamiji 😝
SS : Will sachin ask what can i love about cricket?
VS : Never
NP : If we don't like the particular work we r doing how can we invoke love?
SS : Why? Because he chose a field according to his passion
VS : We're beyond that choice now Swamiji
Hope I am not sounding helpless
Now stability of family has become focus
SS : By accepting that i have to do it anyways, let me give it my best. Its not work but my attitude of non-acceptance that makes it not-likeable. Also think of its impact on you and others.
VS : Smooth running of clients business is what my focus is on
Yes... that is the current attitude Swamiji... stability of family... clients business... employer's businesses
Nothing should get affected
SS : Transforming knowledge into conviction requires us to identify all attachments that are contradicting my knowledge and efforts to eliminate them. Motivation for this comes from the purpose why you want a new conviction
VS : Swamiji... wont this love be there when we put our head where our hands are...
SS : Yes thats possible vinod.
GP : Neelima, just an idea based on swamiji's exercise
If we are doing something we don't like, how do we bring ourselves to love it?
Sometimes it helps to visualise the person/goal for which we are doing the work. That makes it easier to at least accept the work, if not love it. Once acceptance has come, then passion can follow and eventually love too will come. As long as I'm able to keep that person/goal in mind and that goal inspires me enough.
Eg. When I'm changing the diapers of my child, it seems like a horrendous task. But when I realise I'm doing it for my child, and for my child's well-being, the task automatically becomes much easier to perform.
Swamiji, doesn't knowledge transform to conviction when the knowledge from my head enters my heart? When I begin to feel passionately about the knowledge? When I'm convinced that there is no other way but this?
SS : Yes it does. But for that to happen the attachments need to go.
GP : Attachments to the earlier convictions?
NP : Thanks gp.
I think somewhere we r convinced and we have experienced change in our lives when we were regularly attending class. Now we know how we could have been if we had continued and hence are back.
I think regular study and drilling will play the most important role to move the knowledge from head to heart
SS : Yes and to anything blocking the new conviction i seek
NP : Sorry for butting in
SS : Study alone wont help neelima. We have to consciously undo attachments and also put efforts for spiritual disciplines at BMI level mentioned yesterday
GP : True swamiji. But this study and this regular satsang provides us the impetus and inspiration to take up the practices and keep at it.
About the 3 questions swamiji.
There have been so many different views shared by everyone. All of them seem correct from their respective standpoint.
SS : These questions will have different views n correct also at that level. But we need to go deeper.
GP : But what is the real answer? What is it that we really seek? Where do we find it? And how do we find it?
Yes, that's what I also feel. I need to go deeper.
SS : Q1: what do we really seek in life? Each one seeks different things superficially. But why do we want those things?
GP : To calm our minds?
Sukha prapti and dukkha nivrutti?
SS : We want them to fulfil desires so that we are happy. We want all desires fulfilled to be always happy. So we seek things for happiness but do we seek happiness for something else? No. We seek happiness for its own sake. Permanent Happiness(Param Ananda Prapti) is what we seek. Call it peace, desirelessness, freedom, love, moksha...... Its the same.
Also we dont want sorrow, agitation, fear, anxiety...... All these come due to ego. They are absent in deepsleep. So freedom from limitations once and for all is what we seek. This is aatyantika dukha nivritti.
Now we all know this. But whats our feeling? Do i want eternal happiness? No. Im happy with lots of temporary pleasures. Thats why i seek new forms of enjoyment and need thrill and excitement. By itself nothing wrong in it. But seeking it without knowing the deeper demand makes me feel empty again and again because the pleasure is temporary and my demand is permanent happiness.
Hence please think on this- wants get fulfilled wanting does not.
GP : I think most times we don't even realise that there is deeper demand that remains unfulfilled.
Instead, we try fill the emptiness with desires for other things instead.
Hoping for a continuous stream of unbroken happiness through all the desire fulfilments.
SS : Wanting makes me extrovert and dependent. So i go far away from myself and get lost. The purpose of our actions is to become aware of this deeper demand and also understand the momentariness of our life. See how empty life feels. Face the emptiness. Dont run away from it.
Solitude and self observation are great aids in this.
GP : Whereas I keep trying to fill this emptiness with people and objects and achievements
We're actually scared of this emptiness. Which is why we're uncomfortable with solitude and self-observation
NP : Ok so before while and after we seek sense pleasures we should remind ourselves that this is not the end.
SS : We are happy with temporary relief to anger anxiety stress etc. We dont seek the cure. Lets see this clearly in feeling.
Su : Does it help initially to do some balanced and intelligent self denial?
RP : Mathematical we think 1+1+1 +....an infinite times equals infinity. May be true in Maths but not so with happiness.
SS : Hence at the feeling level when i truly feel that the world is good as it is but cant fulfil my basic demand because its temporary and i seek the permanent, i have felt the emptiness of life and seeking becomes intense.
Su : Swamiji I experienced what you are saying. Last August when my mother was to undergo a rare open heart surgery, I was extremely anxious. And thoughts of how I should have been detached occurred. Then surgery was success and she was fine. I forgot all abt it!! Recently she had a small chest and bang on the anxiety surfaced with the same intensity.... she was ok... it was false alarm and again I was back to square one. How many times will I go back and forth.... always seeking temporary symptomatic relief...
SS : Someone may ask - im not seeking permanent happiness! Whats the problem if im comfortable with temporary pleasure? If you were then you would not seek new forms of pleasure. You would not get bored of the same pleasure repeated again and again.
GP : Yes. I need to feel this with conviction. The conviction is absent. I only know it intellectually, theoretically.
AV : So who is permanently happy?
SS : Feeling will come when i slow down and become aware of what im feeling before during and after desire fulfillment
A person who has freed himself from false identifications with the temporary n changing World as well as Body Mind Intellect.
We are happy in deepsleep because we r free from limitations caused by false identification.
GP : And we're not able to stay in deep sleep forever either! Else that would have been perfect! 😄
SS : Permanent health, permanent wealth, permanent power, permanent love, permanent house..... We are seeking the permanent in and through everything but indirectly and in wrong place.
GP : Permanent sleep! :P
Su : Swamiji I think many of us don't even know what is happiness... for many happiness is lack of sorrow .
SS : Let me seek it consciously. That person is called a seeker
Yes sunitha.
Happiness is my nature and experienced when mind is calm.
GP : But it's so true. Deep within we're seeking the permanent in everything. But we just don't realise it. And instead we seek it in the temporary. Because we don't know any other way. This is how we've always been.
Till we realise it's pointless and we're just 'running to stand still'.
Su : So that could also mean many of us has not had a sustained experience of it to know what it is....momentary experiences when desires get fulfilled.
RP : To your seeking point and also sleep example. If I want pure water I have to remove the impurity and not add purity. So if in sleep without doing and seeking anything if I can be happy then in waking state should I add and seek happiness or drop something
SS : If i feel i seek the permanent and i take up the identity as a seeker then life is lived very differently. Today that shift has not happened. I feel i want many things n love n validation etx and if spirituality can help me get it its great. Else later in life i will get back to spirituality.
Su : So true GP... When put like that seems so obvious....so logical.... . yet we have to struggle to become convinced..
SS : Ramkumarji - valid point. its only about dropping. Nothing can be added to the permanent because it is complete and infinite. We have to only drop false identification.
So the first question answer is - what we really seek is permanent happiness and permanent freedom from limitations. Let know this, feel this and seek it consciously.
GP : In and through everything I seek in life, what I truly seek is permanent happiness and permanent freedom from limitations.
Su : I guess the first step to drop false identification starts with consciously identifying with the seeker.
SS : Yes. Change the knowledge and identity shifts by itself.
Su : Because right now I cannot think of dropping as I may have nothing to hold on to...
SS : The question therefore was- what do i really seek in life and not what do i seek in life.
If first question is understood clearly we go to second one.
Su : Yes Swamiji the first question is clear..
SS : 2. Where do i seek it?
Su : Right now I seek it in everything outside me.
In fulfilling desires.
GP : I seek permanent happiness in the impermanent.
People, relationships, objects, everything.
RP : Seek it in every possible place actually.
From temples to theaters to stock market.
We do have the strong notion that we have to seek it ( it's a verb) and hence by default we will perform some action.
While your sleep example says nothing to be done!
AV : So does one actually need to seek happiness?
SS : At the moment im seeking it in the impermanent or outside. Let the outer experiences be to experience temporary nature of life and give us the clear feeling of its hollowness. Like a ladder is used to go beyond the ladder, let the world be used by us to go beyond it by knowing its momentariness. Then the direction will change to seek it within.
Su : For that we have to change our relationship with the external.
SS : Ramkumarji- actions are needed to get into that state. Intense desire to sleep is also necessary. Only then i prepare the bed, put on the mosquito repellant, switch off the light etc. All these are not to do something but drop everything else and just glide into sleep. Once in sleep, no actions needed.
RP : Yes - great point.
SS : Anjali- we dont need to seek it if we are experiencing it. But we are not. Hence we seek it because its our nature and we have gone out of it. Like health is our nature. Diseases are not. When we are sick then we strive for health.
Most of us have said we must seek within. What is within? Seek where?
Su : To do so that we can let go and stop the doing.... for that the goal has go be super clear and one has to be vigilant and alert and conscious of it all the time.
We are happiness. Then how to seek...
SS : We are not experiencing it sunitha
Su : I know Swamiji... but if its my own nature then where can I go to seek it. Even within me.. if it is me... it is not something I can observe. So I can only feel it when it happens.
SS : What is within me? Thats the question.
AV : But don't we need to know with complete conviction that outer objects doesn't endure. That conviction can only come when you have experience it.
GP : I think the idea is to realise that everytime we seek happiness outside (even if it's impermanent), the happiness we feel is actually withing. In the calmness of the mind.
SS : Yes anjali. Thats what we have been discussing. We use our daily experiences only for joy n sorrow and we move on to next one. Do we wait n feel its temporariness no. So we need to do that.
RP : Yes Anjali. All of us believe 1+1+1 an infinite time is infinity. But after we do it a billion times and still your score is zero then you start questioning.
SS : Well put ramkumarji.
RP : Is it worth piling up those 1+1s?
Su : Wow Ramkumar!!
AV : I can only speak for myself.
SS : Swamiji your question.. Iam blank!!
SS : The faster i realize its futility the better. No piling up is needed actually.
AV : As a teenager I didn't have the conviction.
SS : Even as adults many of us dont have it becAuse we havent paid attention to it.
AV : But i feel a lot of concepts truly came alive once I lived it
SS : Yes experience teaches a lot.
AV : Saw karma play out its full circle.
Yes, if one learns from it.
RP : Agreed Anjali. Only caution is if you don't pay attention then we will see the same movie repeat.
Su : So the question Swamiji asked is ...what is within us?
AV : True but atleast you will know the story :)
GP : I should then start paying attention within. And figure out that it's the calmness of mind that I should be paying attention to. That is the state I'm seeking. Isn't it?
SS : Right GPji. But its only first place. Can i find permanent happiness in the mind? How long will mind be quiet?
GP : True
RP : Does happiness reside in some part like mind or intellect? No right then the question of finding it suggests we have a place to look.
Qn is - is it a state of mind ( which we think it is) then I have to all tricks to keep my mind in that state.
So within is definitely not mind or intellect.
But not sure what then...
Su : Right now I experience the within largely as the mind. Though I intellectually know there is something beyond that. But there is no mind in deep sleep. So that's not my permanent within..
SR : Seek within means- to realize i am responsible for my own happiness.. Not attribute my agitations/sorrow to outside objects, people & situations. Ditto for source of happiness. So ownership of feelings by training mx mind to be calm before, be prepared for turbulence, & hang on - first step.
Su : Am I the one who observe the mind... so that is what is called within..
SS : Question does have limitation due to limitation of language and subtlety of the seeking.
As a first step within means not blaming anyone for my happiness as said by sunitaji. Also it means make the mind still as said by GPji and others. But majority stops with this understanding.
The nature of this seeking is not like we seek objects. Subject seeks ungained object and gains it. The nature of seeking is like the actor who has become attached to the role. He is seeking himself.
So with a quiet mind we seek to contemplate on Self as our nature and to drop false identifications.
Within means beyond BMI. This is important to know because when we think of happiness the most common answer is its a state of mind. We are not seeking a state of mind. Its a means no doubt.
Wave has to seek its nature as water, within itself. Meaning dropping false identification with its form and quality as a wave. Then who realises? Water realises itself. Like the actor awakens to his real nature. Waker wakes up. Mind can never realize Self. It can only dissolve itself and Seeking.
RP : Now this is where it takes a U turn. So now seeking is not for happiness but for finding who is the one wanting this happiness.
And in doing so we realise the person seeking happiness was not real.
(As per the definitions of real unreal etc.)
SS : Permanent happiness is not an object. Being infinite it includes everything. As long as i have a sense of limitation due to false identification i have to seek it as a goal. But when personality is integrated then the next step is to dissolve it.
Yes rightly put ramkumarji.
Su : So when I identify with my Real self there will be nothing to seek.
SS : Yes sunitha. Nothing to seek in that state.
Su : Thank you so much Swamiji 🙏
RP : Now you introduced the word integrated personality. This is pre condition for the search?
Why can't I start as is?
SS : Integration was introduced before itself.
I can seek as it is but seeking will not be clear consistent and intense. Thats our condition right now.
RP : So we need the right or tuned equipments you mean?
SS : Yes we need to tune up the equipment for sure.
Su : So this tuning is when we are in the 'doing'mode before we start dropping.
RP : Right the u turn came to a round about now.
SS : Dropping and doing go together. While doing action keep dropping attachments...
Pl elaborate ramkumarji.
RP : Samething you mentioned - doing and dropping.
Earlier we were just in doing mode.
Now focus of doing is to get the equipments straight.
Not for finding happiness.
SS : We have to keep dropping all along. Dropping attachments will get the equipment straight and finally one drops the seeker identity and seeking too. Just like sleep example.
Su : Understood that now...
SS : Focus remains on finding happiness but not as object but as Self that transcends subject and object. For that drop attachment to object and then subject and come to Awaken.
If this is clear i will go on to feeling part of the second question.
RP : Yes - it is a shift of focus in short.
SS : Now the feeling part of the 2nd question is i must have faith that the state of permanent happiness exists and it is my nature. This is where scriptures guru and ishwara are needed. Humility makes us open to these three.
Without the faith in the existence of that state seeking cannot move ahead. Faith is belief reinforced with conviction. Study, reflection, observing the Guru and interacting with the Guru etc build faith.
RP : Agreed. Constant satsangh helps build the faith.
Nothing more effective particularly for beginners.
This faith actually becomes a catalyst for the right seeking. Provides the energy and enthusiasm to keep going.
SS : True. Third question was - 3. How do i get it? Its already answered in our discussions. By gaining Self Knowledge through approaching a Master, listening reflecting and contemplating. For this an integrated personality is required. This is attained by sadhanas at BMI level that we discussed.
Feeling part is - start with a sadhana that you love and do it consistently. Dont start with something where only head is involved. Success in sadhana comes by invoking love in the heart.
It can be singing bhajans, japa, chanting, meditation, serving people with the attitude im serving HIM, Sitting quietly or introspecting or being in nature etc.
Thats it for today. Need to go now. I hope everyone has upadesha saar book by now. We start the text from tomorrow.
RP : Thank you Swamiji! Hari Om all!
SS : Yes lets reflect on the 3 questions.
RP : Swamiji your question is worded such that the answer has to be singular and not plural. Example what do you want rather than what are the things you want from life.
Is that intentional ?
All 3 qns.
SS : Yes absolutely intentional. Also these are very fundamental questions. Need deeper thinking and awareness of what one feels about them. Hence i said answer with heart and not head.
For those joining in just now here are the questions: think about three basic questions. 1. What do i really seek in life? 2. From where do i get it? 3. How do i get it?
GP : 1. I seek for a life where all my desires would be fulfilled. 2. I don't get it. I seek for this from the world. 3. I strive in the world to fulfil those desires.
1. If I'm seeking a life where all my desires are fulfilled, then it means I'm seeking contentment, and a state where there will be no more desires. Because only then will I be really content and there will be no more seeking.
So I'm seeking a state where I'm no longer seeking anything.
RP : So you seek a life without fire (desire) by continuously adding oil to the fire.
Su : When I read the question the first word that came to my mind peace... I want to be peaceful and not have a agitated mind. Right now conducive circumstances, things, ppl and achieveing desires give me that fulfilled feeling which I mistake for peace of mind.... but I want to be in that state all the time.... so that means I should get what I want all the time!!
To undo this loop will take a shift in perspective... The shift from intellectual information to knowledge will take gigantic effort...
But we have start with studies and get clarity so that we are correctly informed.
VS : Hari Om! enjoyed the wonderful conversations. I practised doing one thing at a time today... my work was much smoother. also reminded myself of illusions at various occasions... good as well as depressing. noticed I am getting into a state of detachment and peaceful.
1. What do i really seek in life?I am actually seeking nothing in my heart but I desire for a million things... 2. From where do i get it... from within...? 3. How do i get it?... by doing nothing
But I want to be consistent in what I did today.
But... I want to confess... I enjoyed a nice samosa... and indulged in it and enjoyed every little taste... but said... "illusion hai toh kya hua... its YUMMY"
SD : 1. What do I seek in life?
To be happy
2. Where do I get it?
In things, people events that I feel will give me that happiness.
3. How do I get it?
From being happy within. Internally there has to be an equilibrium.
Still working on the illusion exercise and its getting a teensy weensy bit easier now.
KG : When I ponder.....
1. I am constantly seeking validation (expecting all 2 be positive).
2. I seek 2 get it from the part of world that matters 2 me.
3. By doing things in the world.
Even joining this group was 2 keep getting +ve validation from sadhaks around ;) yes this is a great thing dude! Ha!
Am pondering still.... by seeking this validation I am I not seeking some kind of satisfaction that tends 2 make me full. Is it called peace or happiness...
NP : 1. What I seek in life is freedom from my mental bondage. Which is at the moment not letting me make the most of my life.
2. It is upto me alone. I get it by changing my outlook
3. I can get it by discipline, feeding my mind with the right knowledge, and mananam
Su : Today morning after some thought I realize that what I seek..
Clean my mind off its unhealthy habits, default autopilot mode of operation, I seek a mind which will cooperate with me and my intellect... I seek a mind like that which will remain calm, with a sense of contentment that becomes it's nature rather than seek it from things outside of me.
Where do I get it from? Has to come from within me...
How do I get it?
Study, get clarity which comes with studies. Reflect and make what I studied a part of my value system, practice and become convinced and change my self identity..... long and very tough journey....
GP: Sunitha, Neelima, and others. I agree with all of you. If I were to answer the questions from my head, these would be my responses as well. But when I look at my day-to-day and answer from my heart, it seems I am still seeking to fulfil my desires. My desires might have changed over time and with experience and learning. But I am still seeking to fulfil them.
NP : Gp, I really feel weighed down by all the expectations desires wants needs etc that I face at all levels, physical emotional etc. I know it is because of my mind. Because there r these very very very very rare moments, when my mind is relatively calmer for a few seconds it's obvious that it is all in my mind. And I know if only I could just control it. 😀 I don't want to dance to its tune though that is all that I do
Su : Agree GP.... on a day to day basis I seek to fulfill my desires and my actions and motive are largely influenced by my desires only. But in the background of all that there is a desire to sweep the mind of these desires and resulting crowd of thoughts, anxiety etc and get this peace and calm.
That is a desire that's always there along with the multitude of other desire. But that one desire is not strong enough to take over and manage the others which presently dominate.
Though I wonder if Iam merely intellectualizing by saying all this.
NG : What do I seek - I seek to live fearlessly but sensitively every moment without worrying about consequences or loss of possessions, relationships, reputation etc and with an assurance that every action of mine is the right one at that moment
Where do I get it- guess it can come only from within and if the mind is clear calm and pure and if there is no sense of insecurity/ inadequacy within me
How do I get it - by working towards developing such a mind...tall order!!!
VS : Hari om all... Agree gp bhaiya. Frankly in my case I feel there is a stark difference between what I seek n what I desire. Not sure if my actions point to what I seek either.
And somehow I feel that I need to do nothing to achieve what I seek.
And then I get a thought if this SPRITE attitude might pull me into laziness or tamasicness.
KG : How do we check if we are saying from head or heart? Any simple litmus test?
SS : When we say from head only, we dont feel much about it and so we dont seek it as intensely as we would if we felt for it.
SD : Why do I do things? I need to have the feeling of acceptance and validation and why? because I want to be happy.
Su : So that means if Iam aware of what I should be ideally doing but not doing it.... it's at an intellectual level only.
As Guruji once said knowledge gives the skill but it's emotions that motivate us to act.
SS : Yes sunitha
Its actually incomplete even at intellectual level because if it was complete then it would move us emotionally too.
VS : So its not only that the mind should be available for the intellect. It should be vice versa as well.
SS : Yes it can be both ways. Thats an integrated personality.
Su : True.... strong intellectual conviction can shake some foundations and create an emotional atmosphere to act.
Very interesting....
How delicate the mind intellect balance is...
VS : Swamiji I have one question on the cycle you sent
The knowledge cycle makes me feel its a vicious circle. Shouldn't we seek to get out of it.
SS : Example: intellectually we know we must exercise. Yet we dont. Why? Attachment to body, sleep, work, etc. This makes the intellectual knowledge incomplete and it does not become conviction. When a serious disease is threatening or someone makes fun of our weight, we are able to put aside everything and exercise. Why? Bec the knowledge became conviction, moved my emotions and i act.
VS : And y get into the cycle anyway if we have to get out.
Or is it that we are stuck in it already. So v hv to get out
SS : We already are in the cycle vinod. If we feel we need to get out then we Should. Most are comfortable where they are and many not even aware of the cycle.
VS : Apt example Swamiji... just made for me
Su : I read this somewhere... "beliefs are what we argue for, convictions are what we die for"
SD : Are we already in this cycle at the time of birth?
SS : Nice quote.
Birth is the result of this cycle
SD : Yes so this cycle is always present and we have the choice to get in or get out is it?
VS : So we need to know what the cycle is in order to get out. Like Abhimanyu?
Also there should be a willingness to get out.
So can v call it staying in our comfort zone?
I need to confess if I have any conviction I'll die for.
SS : Yes swapna. Every moment we have that choice. Like u can walk out of a boring movie. Interesting part is we keep cribbing that its boring but continue to sit there and not only that, come back again and again for the same boring experience. Thats the power of attachment.
We live by our convictions and not by our knowledge. Thats why the gap between knowing and doing. Eg. We have the knowledge that Happiness is not outside but our conviction says its outside. Hence we seek it outside.
So it is important to examine our convictions and not just keep acquiring knowledge.
Transformation of knowledge into conviction needs us to drop our attachments, do right thinking and live in alertness. Then such a personality is called integrated personality. To develop this personality is the purpose of all our actions.
NG : Its because we do not really believe its boring. Or that we do not know or believe that there is something higher that we can go to / aspire for
SS : True nirupamaji
NG : Or maybe there is no sense of urgency...I think somewhere I know and am convinced but there is no deadline here so am just wandering😳
VS : So true... comfortable and stuck
If not this birth next birth
Su : How to become convinced? How does the knowledge transform into conviction? I think we are deluded that we are convinced....
SS : Exercise for today: whatever we do, lets do it with integration. Bring feeling and thinking together. Be aware what you feel about the work and what thoughts come about it. If either is missing, invoke it. Eg. While doing work be aware if you feel the joy or satisfaction and also if your thoughts are single pointedly absorbed in the work.
NG : Yes actually Sunitha...if we truly knew and are convinced we will feel the urgency too!!
SS : Work becomes mechanical when feeling thinking and doing get separated. When they come together we love our work.
VS : Like protectiveness about a beloved... son, brother, , parents, wife, , friends
NG : How can we transform knowledge to conviction?
VS : What can we love about work Swamiji 😝
SS : Will sachin ask what can i love about cricket?
VS : Never
NP : If we don't like the particular work we r doing how can we invoke love?
SS : Why? Because he chose a field according to his passion
VS : We're beyond that choice now Swamiji
Hope I am not sounding helpless
Now stability of family has become focus
SS : By accepting that i have to do it anyways, let me give it my best. Its not work but my attitude of non-acceptance that makes it not-likeable. Also think of its impact on you and others.
VS : Smooth running of clients business is what my focus is on
Yes... that is the current attitude Swamiji... stability of family... clients business... employer's businesses
Nothing should get affected
SS : Transforming knowledge into conviction requires us to identify all attachments that are contradicting my knowledge and efforts to eliminate them. Motivation for this comes from the purpose why you want a new conviction
VS : Swamiji... wont this love be there when we put our head where our hands are...
SS : Yes thats possible vinod.
GP : Neelima, just an idea based on swamiji's exercise
If we are doing something we don't like, how do we bring ourselves to love it?
Sometimes it helps to visualise the person/goal for which we are doing the work. That makes it easier to at least accept the work, if not love it. Once acceptance has come, then passion can follow and eventually love too will come. As long as I'm able to keep that person/goal in mind and that goal inspires me enough.
Eg. When I'm changing the diapers of my child, it seems like a horrendous task. But when I realise I'm doing it for my child, and for my child's well-being, the task automatically becomes much easier to perform.
Swamiji, doesn't knowledge transform to conviction when the knowledge from my head enters my heart? When I begin to feel passionately about the knowledge? When I'm convinced that there is no other way but this?
SS : Yes it does. But for that to happen the attachments need to go.
GP : Attachments to the earlier convictions?
NP : Thanks gp.
I think somewhere we r convinced and we have experienced change in our lives when we were regularly attending class. Now we know how we could have been if we had continued and hence are back.
I think regular study and drilling will play the most important role to move the knowledge from head to heart
SS : Yes and to anything blocking the new conviction i seek
NP : Sorry for butting in
SS : Study alone wont help neelima. We have to consciously undo attachments and also put efforts for spiritual disciplines at BMI level mentioned yesterday
GP : True swamiji. But this study and this regular satsang provides us the impetus and inspiration to take up the practices and keep at it.
About the 3 questions swamiji.
There have been so many different views shared by everyone. All of them seem correct from their respective standpoint.
SS : These questions will have different views n correct also at that level. But we need to go deeper.
GP : But what is the real answer? What is it that we really seek? Where do we find it? And how do we find it?
Yes, that's what I also feel. I need to go deeper.
SS : Q1: what do we really seek in life? Each one seeks different things superficially. But why do we want those things?
GP : To calm our minds?
Sukha prapti and dukkha nivrutti?
SS : We want them to fulfil desires so that we are happy. We want all desires fulfilled to be always happy. So we seek things for happiness but do we seek happiness for something else? No. We seek happiness for its own sake. Permanent Happiness(Param Ananda Prapti) is what we seek. Call it peace, desirelessness, freedom, love, moksha...... Its the same.
Also we dont want sorrow, agitation, fear, anxiety...... All these come due to ego. They are absent in deepsleep. So freedom from limitations once and for all is what we seek. This is aatyantika dukha nivritti.
Now we all know this. But whats our feeling? Do i want eternal happiness? No. Im happy with lots of temporary pleasures. Thats why i seek new forms of enjoyment and need thrill and excitement. By itself nothing wrong in it. But seeking it without knowing the deeper demand makes me feel empty again and again because the pleasure is temporary and my demand is permanent happiness.
Hence please think on this- wants get fulfilled wanting does not.
GP : I think most times we don't even realise that there is deeper demand that remains unfulfilled.
Instead, we try fill the emptiness with desires for other things instead.
Hoping for a continuous stream of unbroken happiness through all the desire fulfilments.
SS : Wanting makes me extrovert and dependent. So i go far away from myself and get lost. The purpose of our actions is to become aware of this deeper demand and also understand the momentariness of our life. See how empty life feels. Face the emptiness. Dont run away from it.
Solitude and self observation are great aids in this.
GP : Whereas I keep trying to fill this emptiness with people and objects and achievements
We're actually scared of this emptiness. Which is why we're uncomfortable with solitude and self-observation
NP : Ok so before while and after we seek sense pleasures we should remind ourselves that this is not the end.
SS : We are happy with temporary relief to anger anxiety stress etc. We dont seek the cure. Lets see this clearly in feeling.
Su : Does it help initially to do some balanced and intelligent self denial?
RP : Mathematical we think 1+1+1 +....an infinite times equals infinity. May be true in Maths but not so with happiness.
SS : Hence at the feeling level when i truly feel that the world is good as it is but cant fulfil my basic demand because its temporary and i seek the permanent, i have felt the emptiness of life and seeking becomes intense.
Su : Swamiji I experienced what you are saying. Last August when my mother was to undergo a rare open heart surgery, I was extremely anxious. And thoughts of how I should have been detached occurred. Then surgery was success and she was fine. I forgot all abt it!! Recently she had a small chest and bang on the anxiety surfaced with the same intensity.... she was ok... it was false alarm and again I was back to square one. How many times will I go back and forth.... always seeking temporary symptomatic relief...
SS : Someone may ask - im not seeking permanent happiness! Whats the problem if im comfortable with temporary pleasure? If you were then you would not seek new forms of pleasure. You would not get bored of the same pleasure repeated again and again.
GP : Yes. I need to feel this with conviction. The conviction is absent. I only know it intellectually, theoretically.
AV : So who is permanently happy?
SS : Feeling will come when i slow down and become aware of what im feeling before during and after desire fulfillment
A person who has freed himself from false identifications with the temporary n changing World as well as Body Mind Intellect.
We are happy in deepsleep because we r free from limitations caused by false identification.
GP : And we're not able to stay in deep sleep forever either! Else that would have been perfect! 😄
SS : Permanent health, permanent wealth, permanent power, permanent love, permanent house..... We are seeking the permanent in and through everything but indirectly and in wrong place.
GP : Permanent sleep! :P
Su : Swamiji I think many of us don't even know what is happiness... for many happiness is lack of sorrow .
SS : Let me seek it consciously. That person is called a seeker
Yes sunitha.
Happiness is my nature and experienced when mind is calm.
GP : But it's so true. Deep within we're seeking the permanent in everything. But we just don't realise it. And instead we seek it in the temporary. Because we don't know any other way. This is how we've always been.
Till we realise it's pointless and we're just 'running to stand still'.
Su : So that could also mean many of us has not had a sustained experience of it to know what it is....momentary experiences when desires get fulfilled.
RP : To your seeking point and also sleep example. If I want pure water I have to remove the impurity and not add purity. So if in sleep without doing and seeking anything if I can be happy then in waking state should I add and seek happiness or drop something
SS : If i feel i seek the permanent and i take up the identity as a seeker then life is lived very differently. Today that shift has not happened. I feel i want many things n love n validation etx and if spirituality can help me get it its great. Else later in life i will get back to spirituality.
Su : So true GP... When put like that seems so obvious....so logical.... . yet we have to struggle to become convinced..
SS : Ramkumarji - valid point. its only about dropping. Nothing can be added to the permanent because it is complete and infinite. We have to only drop false identification.
So the first question answer is - what we really seek is permanent happiness and permanent freedom from limitations. Let know this, feel this and seek it consciously.
GP : In and through everything I seek in life, what I truly seek is permanent happiness and permanent freedom from limitations.
Su : I guess the first step to drop false identification starts with consciously identifying with the seeker.
SS : Yes. Change the knowledge and identity shifts by itself.
Su : Because right now I cannot think of dropping as I may have nothing to hold on to...
SS : The question therefore was- what do i really seek in life and not what do i seek in life.
If first question is understood clearly we go to second one.
Su : Yes Swamiji the first question is clear..
SS : 2. Where do i seek it?
Su : Right now I seek it in everything outside me.
In fulfilling desires.
GP : I seek permanent happiness in the impermanent.
People, relationships, objects, everything.
RP : Seek it in every possible place actually.
From temples to theaters to stock market.
We do have the strong notion that we have to seek it ( it's a verb) and hence by default we will perform some action.
While your sleep example says nothing to be done!
AV : So does one actually need to seek happiness?
SS : At the moment im seeking it in the impermanent or outside. Let the outer experiences be to experience temporary nature of life and give us the clear feeling of its hollowness. Like a ladder is used to go beyond the ladder, let the world be used by us to go beyond it by knowing its momentariness. Then the direction will change to seek it within.
Su : For that we have to change our relationship with the external.
SS : Ramkumarji- actions are needed to get into that state. Intense desire to sleep is also necessary. Only then i prepare the bed, put on the mosquito repellant, switch off the light etc. All these are not to do something but drop everything else and just glide into sleep. Once in sleep, no actions needed.
RP : Yes - great point.
SS : Anjali- we dont need to seek it if we are experiencing it. But we are not. Hence we seek it because its our nature and we have gone out of it. Like health is our nature. Diseases are not. When we are sick then we strive for health.
Most of us have said we must seek within. What is within? Seek where?
Su : To do so that we can let go and stop the doing.... for that the goal has go be super clear and one has to be vigilant and alert and conscious of it all the time.
We are happiness. Then how to seek...
SS : We are not experiencing it sunitha
Su : I know Swamiji... but if its my own nature then where can I go to seek it. Even within me.. if it is me... it is not something I can observe. So I can only feel it when it happens.
SS : What is within me? Thats the question.
AV : But don't we need to know with complete conviction that outer objects doesn't endure. That conviction can only come when you have experience it.
GP : I think the idea is to realise that everytime we seek happiness outside (even if it's impermanent), the happiness we feel is actually withing. In the calmness of the mind.
SS : Yes anjali. Thats what we have been discussing. We use our daily experiences only for joy n sorrow and we move on to next one. Do we wait n feel its temporariness no. So we need to do that.
RP : Yes Anjali. All of us believe 1+1+1 an infinite time is infinity. But after we do it a billion times and still your score is zero then you start questioning.
SS : Well put ramkumarji.
RP : Is it worth piling up those 1+1s?
Su : Wow Ramkumar!!
AV : I can only speak for myself.
SS : Swamiji your question.. Iam blank!!
SS : The faster i realize its futility the better. No piling up is needed actually.
AV : As a teenager I didn't have the conviction.
SS : Even as adults many of us dont have it becAuse we havent paid attention to it.
AV : But i feel a lot of concepts truly came alive once I lived it
SS : Yes experience teaches a lot.
AV : Saw karma play out its full circle.
Yes, if one learns from it.
RP : Agreed Anjali. Only caution is if you don't pay attention then we will see the same movie repeat.
Su : So the question Swamiji asked is ...what is within us?
AV : True but atleast you will know the story :)
GP : I should then start paying attention within. And figure out that it's the calmness of mind that I should be paying attention to. That is the state I'm seeking. Isn't it?
SS : Right GPji. But its only first place. Can i find permanent happiness in the mind? How long will mind be quiet?
GP : True
RP : Does happiness reside in some part like mind or intellect? No right then the question of finding it suggests we have a place to look.
Qn is - is it a state of mind ( which we think it is) then I have to all tricks to keep my mind in that state.
So within is definitely not mind or intellect.
But not sure what then...
Su : Right now I experience the within largely as the mind. Though I intellectually know there is something beyond that. But there is no mind in deep sleep. So that's not my permanent within..
SR : Seek within means- to realize i am responsible for my own happiness.. Not attribute my agitations/sorrow to outside objects, people & situations. Ditto for source of happiness. So ownership of feelings by training mx mind to be calm before, be prepared for turbulence, & hang on - first step.
Su : Am I the one who observe the mind... so that is what is called within..
SS : Question does have limitation due to limitation of language and subtlety of the seeking.
As a first step within means not blaming anyone for my happiness as said by sunitaji. Also it means make the mind still as said by GPji and others. But majority stops with this understanding.
The nature of this seeking is not like we seek objects. Subject seeks ungained object and gains it. The nature of seeking is like the actor who has become attached to the role. He is seeking himself.
So with a quiet mind we seek to contemplate on Self as our nature and to drop false identifications.
Within means beyond BMI. This is important to know because when we think of happiness the most common answer is its a state of mind. We are not seeking a state of mind. Its a means no doubt.
Wave has to seek its nature as water, within itself. Meaning dropping false identification with its form and quality as a wave. Then who realises? Water realises itself. Like the actor awakens to his real nature. Waker wakes up. Mind can never realize Self. It can only dissolve itself and Seeking.
RP : Now this is where it takes a U turn. So now seeking is not for happiness but for finding who is the one wanting this happiness.
And in doing so we realise the person seeking happiness was not real.
(As per the definitions of real unreal etc.)
SS : Permanent happiness is not an object. Being infinite it includes everything. As long as i have a sense of limitation due to false identification i have to seek it as a goal. But when personality is integrated then the next step is to dissolve it.
Yes rightly put ramkumarji.
Su : So when I identify with my Real self there will be nothing to seek.
SS : Yes sunitha. Nothing to seek in that state.
Su : Thank you so much Swamiji 🙏
RP : Now you introduced the word integrated personality. This is pre condition for the search?
Why can't I start as is?
SS : Integration was introduced before itself.
I can seek as it is but seeking will not be clear consistent and intense. Thats our condition right now.
RP : So we need the right or tuned equipments you mean?
SS : Yes we need to tune up the equipment for sure.
Su : So this tuning is when we are in the 'doing'mode before we start dropping.
RP : Right the u turn came to a round about now.
SS : Dropping and doing go together. While doing action keep dropping attachments...
Pl elaborate ramkumarji.
RP : Samething you mentioned - doing and dropping.
Earlier we were just in doing mode.
Now focus of doing is to get the equipments straight.
Not for finding happiness.
SS : We have to keep dropping all along. Dropping attachments will get the equipment straight and finally one drops the seeker identity and seeking too. Just like sleep example.
Su : Understood that now...
SS : Focus remains on finding happiness but not as object but as Self that transcends subject and object. For that drop attachment to object and then subject and come to Awaken.
If this is clear i will go on to feeling part of the second question.
RP : Yes - it is a shift of focus in short.
SS : Now the feeling part of the 2nd question is i must have faith that the state of permanent happiness exists and it is my nature. This is where scriptures guru and ishwara are needed. Humility makes us open to these three.
Without the faith in the existence of that state seeking cannot move ahead. Faith is belief reinforced with conviction. Study, reflection, observing the Guru and interacting with the Guru etc build faith.
RP : Agreed. Constant satsangh helps build the faith.
Nothing more effective particularly for beginners.
This faith actually becomes a catalyst for the right seeking. Provides the energy and enthusiasm to keep going.
SS : True. Third question was - 3. How do i get it? Its already answered in our discussions. By gaining Self Knowledge through approaching a Master, listening reflecting and contemplating. For this an integrated personality is required. This is attained by sadhanas at BMI level that we discussed.
Feeling part is - start with a sadhana that you love and do it consistently. Dont start with something where only head is involved. Success in sadhana comes by invoking love in the heart.
It can be singing bhajans, japa, chanting, meditation, serving people with the attitude im serving HIM, Sitting quietly or introspecting or being in nature etc.
Thats it for today. Need to go now. I hope everyone has upadesha saar book by now. We start the text from tomorrow.
RP : Thank you Swamiji! Hari Om all!
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