SS: Summary of verse 2:
1. Action is an ocean because it strengthens doership, generates many thought and results being temporary, it leaves behind a craving to act again. It can never fulfil our basic need of Permanent Happiness.
2. Action can be done with the understanding that results cannot add or subtract anything from me. I am worthy irrespective of results.
3. Balance the time we give to actions and to knowledge.
Balance material and spiritual pursuits. Dont postpone spiritual pursuit.
Su: Thanks Swamiji!
NG: I am worthy irrespective of the results...what a powerful statement but so difficult to implement. Am so used to defining self worth wrt to roles/achievements that imagining a state or feeling worthy without those is almost impossible! And if applied to others also, it would be so much easier to operate from love and acceptance and without agitation!
Su: Actions cannot fulfill our basic needs for Permanent Actions... such a powerful sentence. But if we hear this without the right background it will sound illogical to most
So true Nirupama....
NG: Sunitha - The quote that you posted was bang on! Don't postpone spiritual pursuit...start by starting to live a Divine Life
KG: ya!
Balance time. How much dedicated time for spiritual pursuits? Like 15 mins scriptural study daily as start...mentioned by Swamiji.... This will vary from person to person but doesn't depend on what roles one is performing in the external world. Irrespective the stanza seems 2 convey the urgency.
Also the spiritual pursuits should cater both M & I.
VS: but I need to remind myself that I am worthy so my actions should also be worthy.
Hari om all n Swamiji. Thanks for making us feel worthy of ourselves. Someone told me long... each one of us is special and I am special too.
Yes and I agree to akka... Sunitha... the quote is so apt...
KG: So japa, bhajans, etc are also to be taken up and not just study. Please correct me.
VS: Yes covering all aspects of the personslity.
SS: Yes krishna
KG: Is there anything we can do at this level on B?
Swamiji, till the complete integration is done and there's no need 2 specifically pursue spirituality, what I wanted 2 know is whether body can also be trained. But exercise, yoga cannot be spiritual tool, rt.
SS: Spirituality is not a way to look at certain things. Its a certain way to look at all things. Anything done at body level also can be spiritual. Eating, walking, yoga, exercise etc are also spiritual when done with the focus on purity and integration and not for praise or any selfish purpose.
Spiritual life is all-inclusive. Principles of spirituality when followed bring about the integration. We cant wait for integration to happen and then come to spiritual pursuits.
KG: Ok.
RB: Swamiji. So we have to live every moment a spiritual life?
Is it just making a decision that I will live a spiritual life from now on OR is there a process to get to that level
Su: Since we all agree about the urgency to start living the spiritual life and Make Time to pursue it....
May be the Bombay and nearby setukaris can start by Making Time to attend the MB3 camp in Kolwan.
The chyks and others have taken great effort to specially design this camp for the setukari group so that children can also participate. I think we should encourage them by making time for the camp..
SS: Rishi its a decision to begin with. But mainly its a process to be alert of thoughts and desires and make them selfless and pure. For that the goal must be clear to us. At the moment we may or may not be able to identify with moksha as the goal. But integration of BMI, purity of mind, selflessness, giving love and service are the goals we can start working towards. Anything that helps me to achieve the above i must do and avoid anything that harms or distracts me from these.
RP: Swamiji the verse refers to action being like an ocean. Understand the temp nature of results but the ocean reference suggests being trapped in some form of cycle. In other places we hear karm ki chakki type of words. What's the trap being referred to? Or does ocean refer to fact that there is just endless actions one can perform ?
Why can't we just get out of action? Is it habit ? Attachment ?
Su: I guess action with attachment to results is the problem. Action itself in the right spirit is ok
SS: Thats only a part of the problem sunitha
And part of the solution
Impressions-desire-thoughts-actions-results-impressions is the endless 'chakki' of karma. This cycle generates endless actions. Hence like an ocean its endless. Secondly one cant cross an ocean by swimming and reach the shores. Same way actions cannot help us to discover permanent happiness. Hence bhaja govindam says satsang is the boat needed to cross the ocean.
We cant get out of action because of sense of incompleteness. Till one does not discover permanent happiness as one's nature one will keep acting for happiness. Also our senses and mind are extroverted and attached to action. Hence to keep quiet is most difficult task
Sunitha, results create further impressions. When we drop insistence on results we only stop creating further impressions. Rest of the cycle is still there. Hence i said its only a part of the problem and part of the solution
KG: So its all the while said karma yoga alone cannot take one to the Goal. But it will definitely act as a good path to start with.
SS: Yes
This is the ignorance cycle. Earlier we had seen the knowledge cycle
VS: Swamiji... please pardon me if my question sounds objectionable... but this is troubling me.
Agree that we are in the ignorance cycle n not getting completeness or infinite happiness because of that.
JV: I have a serious doubt. How and why would self knowing whom there is no ignorance, becomes ignorant about self.
VS: What is the guarantee that going beyond this will give me completeness or infinite happiness? Am I going into blank nothingness...
JV: The question is really bugging me. Plus going by jiva, ishwara, jagat theory, I, the jiva, don't have a chance to get out of the cycle as it is not mine ignorance. Only When the self gets rid of its avidyaa will the world vanish. Along with it the jiva.
SS: Ignorance of Self means i the jiva am ignorant of my true nature. Please see the ignorance cycle. When i become ignorant of my true nature then false identification with BMI starts and incompleteness arises, to fulfil which i act and im bound.
Why i became ignorant has no answer because ignorance is the cause of BMI. Hence it is called causal body. Intellect is only an effect of ignorance and why is an effect of intellect. Any answer is a hypothesis. Buddha said when a thorn pricks you will u ask why? How did it come here? Why is it sharp? Or will u just pluck it out?
Jiva by right knowledge and action can definitely end ignorance and awaken. So jiva has a choice all the time.
Vinod: question is valid.
1.We experience happiness whenever mind is calm. Is it nothingness?
2.Desirelessness is happiness is everyone's experience.
3.When identification with mind is transcended through contemplation on sat-chit-ananda one experiences supreme bliss.
Proofs are: all the realized masters, declaration of scriptures and logical thinking.
VS: Swamiji... isn't happiness itself a relative term
SS: So?
In a relative world everything is going to be relative
VS: I feel happy when I am calm... but I am also happy when I am excited about an materialistic pursuit...
SS: Thats why we are saying transcend the realm of change by rising above BMI and u will know the permanent.
VS: Is there something called ecstasy
SS: Excitement, pleasure, ecstasy, etc are at sensory levels. Are we talking of that level? No.
VS: Is it like saying I don't want to write the exam because I am not sure if I'll pass or fail.
JV: Not clear. All attempts to remove ignorance are going to be through BMI. "Why"-intellect is also a part of it. If I know the cause, it becomes easy to transcend.
Let's say the equipment is limited, in that case there is no attempt. E.g. Animal or plant. Not to undermine them as jiva. If my bmi is limited then there is no progress in knowing self.
Also, charts specifies that it starts with "ignorance of self". More important is how can self get ignorant about ones own self.
SS: Causation hunting works fine for objective science but it has limitations in subjective science. If we say cause of ignorance is x one will say whats its cause and it will go into an endless loop. Also what can be cause of ignorance? Presupposes that ignorance was not there before and then it got created. What was there before ignorance. Only two possibilities: nothing or knowledge. Ignorance cant come out of either. Ignorance is beginning-less and the ultimate cause of bondage
How can waker forget himself and become dreamer?
Vedanta at its highest level is saying Self is jnana-svarupa and can never become ignorant. You are that Self. Do i experience that? No. I experience finitude sorrow and so vedanta says that in that case ignorance is the cause.
An actor can definitely get totally identified with the role and forget his true identity.
JV: On the causation hunting, infact, if it wouldn't have been that approach, we woudnt have been contemplating at all. However, I do buy your point about endless loop as well. I think causation hunting stops at a point. When intellect stops and stumbles its limitations. When it can not comprehend at all. E.g. When you see a beautiful sunset or a gigantic mountain in front of you. You do transcend beyond.
Regarding you explanation about knowledge and ignorance:
So there is nothing like ignorance in a way. As knowledge can never be ignorant. And I is always aware about itself. It is always constant in the world, in the dream and in the deep sleep. I never ever is diluted.
Still it baffles me the whole purpose of the world and its existence.
Actor never forgets who is. Its just that he sees no other option but to act.
I meant who he is.
SS: Actor example has limitations. Ignorance is absence of Knowledge. It exists as long as we have false identification. Just like when we are on earth then clouds appear to cover the sun. Though they cant actually cover. Again example has limitations
VS: So does that mean that causation hunting is only due to ignorance. When intellect is convinced that causation hunting is futile it meditates and abides in the self.
SS: Yes
VS: What are the limitations of not doing causation hunting... is it possible to force ourselves to stop doing it.
SS: Nothing can be forced in spirituality. Right Thinking and grace alone can lead us beyond causation. Not doing right thinking and ignoring causation keeps us in ignorance and tamas.
Su: Jignesh I think right now our mind and intellect are not subtle and powerful enough to even ask the right questions abt creation etc. I was also stuck like this when we discussed this last week. Could not stop my questions and my mind refused to accept these answers Finally after some thinking two things helped to settle my mind and it's questions. It works for me
1. Faith in Gurudev. For me it works. If Gurudev has said causation hunting does not work beyond a point, then that's it. When He says something I don't understand or agree with now... I will wait till I understand, becoz if He has said it, it's true. Then obsessive questioning stops.
2. I thought of the futility of this question, because other than tickling the intellect it is of no great value now. Now even if my questions are valid, I need to focus on basic things like getting my BMI integrated. Instead of putting my energy in that, why waste time now wondering about the theory of causation....
SS: Well said sunitha
VS: Agree Swamiji and Sunitha
JV: Sunitha, these questions are coming from complete faith that there is true knowledge beyond intellect. And also an extreme curiosity to experience lack of ignorance.
Sometimes I feel I am just a blink from it and at times it feels no where in the sight.
1. Action is an ocean because it strengthens doership, generates many thought and results being temporary, it leaves behind a craving to act again. It can never fulfil our basic need of Permanent Happiness.
2. Action can be done with the understanding that results cannot add or subtract anything from me. I am worthy irrespective of results.
3. Balance the time we give to actions and to knowledge.
Balance material and spiritual pursuits. Dont postpone spiritual pursuit.
Su: Thanks Swamiji!
NG: I am worthy irrespective of the results...what a powerful statement but so difficult to implement. Am so used to defining self worth wrt to roles/achievements that imagining a state or feeling worthy without those is almost impossible! And if applied to others also, it would be so much easier to operate from love and acceptance and without agitation!
Su: Actions cannot fulfill our basic needs for Permanent Actions... such a powerful sentence. But if we hear this without the right background it will sound illogical to most
So true Nirupama....
NG: Sunitha - The quote that you posted was bang on! Don't postpone spiritual pursuit...start by starting to live a Divine Life
KG: ya!
Balance time. How much dedicated time for spiritual pursuits? Like 15 mins scriptural study daily as start...mentioned by Swamiji.... This will vary from person to person but doesn't depend on what roles one is performing in the external world. Irrespective the stanza seems 2 convey the urgency.
Also the spiritual pursuits should cater both M & I.
VS: but I need to remind myself that I am worthy so my actions should also be worthy.
Hari om all n Swamiji. Thanks for making us feel worthy of ourselves. Someone told me long... each one of us is special and I am special too.
Yes and I agree to akka... Sunitha... the quote is so apt...
KG: So japa, bhajans, etc are also to be taken up and not just study. Please correct me.
VS: Yes covering all aspects of the personslity.
SS: Yes krishna
KG: Is there anything we can do at this level on B?
Swamiji, till the complete integration is done and there's no need 2 specifically pursue spirituality, what I wanted 2 know is whether body can also be trained. But exercise, yoga cannot be spiritual tool, rt.
SS: Spirituality is not a way to look at certain things. Its a certain way to look at all things. Anything done at body level also can be spiritual. Eating, walking, yoga, exercise etc are also spiritual when done with the focus on purity and integration and not for praise or any selfish purpose.
Spiritual life is all-inclusive. Principles of spirituality when followed bring about the integration. We cant wait for integration to happen and then come to spiritual pursuits.
KG: Ok.
RB: Swamiji. So we have to live every moment a spiritual life?
Is it just making a decision that I will live a spiritual life from now on OR is there a process to get to that level
Su: Since we all agree about the urgency to start living the spiritual life and Make Time to pursue it....
May be the Bombay and nearby setukaris can start by Making Time to attend the MB3 camp in Kolwan.
The chyks and others have taken great effort to specially design this camp for the setukari group so that children can also participate. I think we should encourage them by making time for the camp..
SS: Rishi its a decision to begin with. But mainly its a process to be alert of thoughts and desires and make them selfless and pure. For that the goal must be clear to us. At the moment we may or may not be able to identify with moksha as the goal. But integration of BMI, purity of mind, selflessness, giving love and service are the goals we can start working towards. Anything that helps me to achieve the above i must do and avoid anything that harms or distracts me from these.
RP: Swamiji the verse refers to action being like an ocean. Understand the temp nature of results but the ocean reference suggests being trapped in some form of cycle. In other places we hear karm ki chakki type of words. What's the trap being referred to? Or does ocean refer to fact that there is just endless actions one can perform ?
Why can't we just get out of action? Is it habit ? Attachment ?
Su: I guess action with attachment to results is the problem. Action itself in the right spirit is ok
SS: Thats only a part of the problem sunitha
And part of the solution
Impressions-desire-thoughts-actions-results-impressions is the endless 'chakki' of karma. This cycle generates endless actions. Hence like an ocean its endless. Secondly one cant cross an ocean by swimming and reach the shores. Same way actions cannot help us to discover permanent happiness. Hence bhaja govindam says satsang is the boat needed to cross the ocean.
We cant get out of action because of sense of incompleteness. Till one does not discover permanent happiness as one's nature one will keep acting for happiness. Also our senses and mind are extroverted and attached to action. Hence to keep quiet is most difficult task
Sunitha, results create further impressions. When we drop insistence on results we only stop creating further impressions. Rest of the cycle is still there. Hence i said its only a part of the problem and part of the solution
KG: So its all the while said karma yoga alone cannot take one to the Goal. But it will definitely act as a good path to start with.
SS: Yes
VS: Swamiji... please pardon me if my question sounds objectionable... but this is troubling me.
Agree that we are in the ignorance cycle n not getting completeness or infinite happiness because of that.
JV: I have a serious doubt. How and why would self knowing whom there is no ignorance, becomes ignorant about self.
VS: What is the guarantee that going beyond this will give me completeness or infinite happiness? Am I going into blank nothingness...
JV: The question is really bugging me. Plus going by jiva, ishwara, jagat theory, I, the jiva, don't have a chance to get out of the cycle as it is not mine ignorance. Only When the self gets rid of its avidyaa will the world vanish. Along with it the jiva.
SS: Ignorance of Self means i the jiva am ignorant of my true nature. Please see the ignorance cycle. When i become ignorant of my true nature then false identification with BMI starts and incompleteness arises, to fulfil which i act and im bound.
Why i became ignorant has no answer because ignorance is the cause of BMI. Hence it is called causal body. Intellect is only an effect of ignorance and why is an effect of intellect. Any answer is a hypothesis. Buddha said when a thorn pricks you will u ask why? How did it come here? Why is it sharp? Or will u just pluck it out?
Jiva by right knowledge and action can definitely end ignorance and awaken. So jiva has a choice all the time.
Vinod: question is valid.
1.We experience happiness whenever mind is calm. Is it nothingness?
2.Desirelessness is happiness is everyone's experience.
3.When identification with mind is transcended through contemplation on sat-chit-ananda one experiences supreme bliss.
Proofs are: all the realized masters, declaration of scriptures and logical thinking.
VS: Swamiji... isn't happiness itself a relative term
SS: So?
In a relative world everything is going to be relative
VS: I feel happy when I am calm... but I am also happy when I am excited about an materialistic pursuit...
SS: Thats why we are saying transcend the realm of change by rising above BMI and u will know the permanent.
VS: Is there something called ecstasy
SS: Excitement, pleasure, ecstasy, etc are at sensory levels. Are we talking of that level? No.
VS: Is it like saying I don't want to write the exam because I am not sure if I'll pass or fail.
JV: Not clear. All attempts to remove ignorance are going to be through BMI. "Why"-intellect is also a part of it. If I know the cause, it becomes easy to transcend.
Let's say the equipment is limited, in that case there is no attempt. E.g. Animal or plant. Not to undermine them as jiva. If my bmi is limited then there is no progress in knowing self.
Also, charts specifies that it starts with "ignorance of self". More important is how can self get ignorant about ones own self.
SS: Causation hunting works fine for objective science but it has limitations in subjective science. If we say cause of ignorance is x one will say whats its cause and it will go into an endless loop. Also what can be cause of ignorance? Presupposes that ignorance was not there before and then it got created. What was there before ignorance. Only two possibilities: nothing or knowledge. Ignorance cant come out of either. Ignorance is beginning-less and the ultimate cause of bondage
How can waker forget himself and become dreamer?
Vedanta at its highest level is saying Self is jnana-svarupa and can never become ignorant. You are that Self. Do i experience that? No. I experience finitude sorrow and so vedanta says that in that case ignorance is the cause.
An actor can definitely get totally identified with the role and forget his true identity.
JV: On the causation hunting, infact, if it wouldn't have been that approach, we woudnt have been contemplating at all. However, I do buy your point about endless loop as well. I think causation hunting stops at a point. When intellect stops and stumbles its limitations. When it can not comprehend at all. E.g. When you see a beautiful sunset or a gigantic mountain in front of you. You do transcend beyond.
Regarding you explanation about knowledge and ignorance:
So there is nothing like ignorance in a way. As knowledge can never be ignorant. And I is always aware about itself. It is always constant in the world, in the dream and in the deep sleep. I never ever is diluted.
Still it baffles me the whole purpose of the world and its existence.
Actor never forgets who is. Its just that he sees no other option but to act.
I meant who he is.
SS: Actor example has limitations. Ignorance is absence of Knowledge. It exists as long as we have false identification. Just like when we are on earth then clouds appear to cover the sun. Though they cant actually cover. Again example has limitations
VS: So does that mean that causation hunting is only due to ignorance. When intellect is convinced that causation hunting is futile it meditates and abides in the self.
SS: Yes
VS: What are the limitations of not doing causation hunting... is it possible to force ourselves to stop doing it.
SS: Nothing can be forced in spirituality. Right Thinking and grace alone can lead us beyond causation. Not doing right thinking and ignoring causation keeps us in ignorance and tamas.
Su: Jignesh I think right now our mind and intellect are not subtle and powerful enough to even ask the right questions abt creation etc. I was also stuck like this when we discussed this last week. Could not stop my questions and my mind refused to accept these answers Finally after some thinking two things helped to settle my mind and it's questions. It works for me
1. Faith in Gurudev. For me it works. If Gurudev has said causation hunting does not work beyond a point, then that's it. When He says something I don't understand or agree with now... I will wait till I understand, becoz if He has said it, it's true. Then obsessive questioning stops.
2. I thought of the futility of this question, because other than tickling the intellect it is of no great value now. Now even if my questions are valid, I need to focus on basic things like getting my BMI integrated. Instead of putting my energy in that, why waste time now wondering about the theory of causation....
SS: Well said sunitha
VS: Agree Swamiji and Sunitha
JV: Sunitha, these questions are coming from complete faith that there is true knowledge beyond intellect. And also an extreme curiosity to experience lack of ignorance.
Sometimes I feel I am just a blink from it and at times it feels no where in the sight.
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