SS: Verse 13: The absorption of the mind(mano laya) and destruction of the mind(mano nasha) occurs by the restrain of the Prana and the mind respectively. The absorbed mind comes back but never indeed the dead mind.
Laya-vinaashane ubhaya rodhane.
Laya gatam punar bhavati no mrtam.
What is the difference between mano laya and mano nasha? What does destruction of the mind mean?
Su: From Guruji's commentary I understand that mind has two aspects.. sensing the sense objects around us, perceiving them and making sense of them and registering it in our memory. Then we come to enjoy and depend on them eventually leading us to believe that happiness lies these objects. We need to understand happiness lies in us (subject ) is not the nature of the object.
When we try to control the mind thru pranas the mind is absorbed hence does not perceive the objects... but if the control goes it will return again. It's temporary. But when we control the mind directly with the understanding of the true nature of objects and man then that clingling-to-objects nature of mind gets destroyed. This destruction is permanent. Then the mind does not come back to cling to the outside world for happiness.
So here destruction is a positive concept. Therefore restraint thru pranas is like treatment of symptoms and destruction of mind is curing the disease.
So does that mean pranayama can be used as a beginners step...
GP: Good one sunitha
Swamiji, don't we experience mano-laya every day in deep sleep?
NB: True dat sunithaji... it mentions dat wen prana is controled, d mind is also in control n dsnt wander.but d ignorance stil remains.so destruction of d mind is destruction of d ignorance.so for one's growth i think first one must go for restraining d mind thru pranayam n second d removal of ignorance thru knowledge.
GP: Question: if the mind becomes dead, what remains? As long as we are 'alive' won't traces of the mind remain?
NB: But GP bhaiya, manolaya means absorbed mind na? so wat wil d mind b absorbed in deep sleep?
Dis is as per ur question asked GP bhaiya
Su: GP from what I understood from the commentary ... dead mind does not mean the thoughts stop. That goes on. But the ignorance based on which the mind function ends.. please correct me Swamiji
SR: I think its parallelism...mano laya state is temporary control of mind thru pranas like sleeping man is temporary in sleep nd can wake up nd resume his functions
Whereas mano nasha is permanent removal of ignorance aftr wich it nevr come backs like dead man never wakes up
GP: But sunitha, if thoughts remain, then the mind is still present. The statement says 'mano nasha' and not 'avidya nasha'. And hence my question.
So sanjit, does the mind also die when the person is dead?
SR: As per my understanding...when person dies...mind does not get vital energy frm pranas nor does it get senses to express...so it disconnects nd not in use...temporarily dead...but can b used when again connected with pranas nd senses
NE: So mind travels thru different births like the soul?
NB: I think mind dies in a dead man bcoz its nothing but flow of thoughts...' dead man doesnt think'
But wen it gets a new body bcoz of d vasanas den d mind xpreses again
Su: GP even I am not to clear in that. When I read this I had the same question as yours. If mind is the flow of thoughts, how can there be a mind without thoughts.
But then I thought what he meant was that the subtle body remains... but the ego entity with individual likes and dislikes ends...
Not sure I made sense
KG: My understanding :
Mano Laya - Absorbed using tool - Single pointed mind. Rebounces back when tool is withdrawn.
Mano Nasha - Mind in full control of the person(soul - not sure what an non-ignorant person is called). Mind/thoughts not driven by sense perception / memory / expectations / etc. Can choose what thoughts 2 think. Mind used as a tool to function pranas, body, etc.
RP: I think we must go back to the Vasanas->desires->thoughts->action->vasanas cycle. When we distract our minds and keep them focused using pranayama then this cycle is temporarily suspended but will resume again. But if mind understands that there is no real happiness in the objects and experiences that happiness is in the subject then the link is broken permanently. That does not mean no thoughts but no thoughts born of this chain.
Like the dialog in the movies - "samjho aaj se tumhara yeh dost mar chuka hai". Meaning something internally happened and no thoughts of friendship will sprout again but doesn't mean he doesn't think at all. Better example - Arjun getting thoughts of "oh they are my Guru and grandfather and relatives "etc before the war. After listening to the Gita these thoughts born of attachment are "dead" but Arjun is not dead. Of course both examples have their limitations.
Su: Ok then when they say with pranayama the mind becomes absorbed hence no perception hence no agitation etc. But the mind has become absorbed now and no perception is happening now. What about earlier impressions. In the Vasanas cycle... can Vasanas be suppressed so that they don't express bcz mind is absorbed
SS: Good churning happening. Keep it going
RP: Sunita - I think we can try explain this using the same Arjun example. Krishna could have tried to tell Arjun about Draupadi incidence etc and that could have temporarily psyched Arjun to forget his attachments and get ready for a fight. but when he would come face to face with his teacher then again he will not be able raise his bow. But when his mind is truly "absorbed" in the knowledge these attachments don't raise again at all. What happened to the attachments - well the guy who used to be influenced by these are gone. Same with Vasanas in our discussions.
Su: So you are saying that Vasanas become dormant bcz the individual does not identify with it anymore ?
Can that happen?
RP: In fact (I have read in some version) Arjun tells Draupadi at one point during the war that this war is not about you and the humiliation you were subjected to but it is about Dharma!!! Now that coming from him who all the time prepared for war remembering that incident and other similar injustice done - it is really something. speaks of the transformation and not some hypnosis or psyched up situation. Back to our Laya and nasha discussion.
Su: If draupadi actually thought the whole war was for her ...imagine being told you never figured.. lol 😅
Sorry for digressing.. back to discussion
RP: Not sure about dormant - if it is dormant then it can sprout again. Like take a seed and put it in a fridge - it won't sprout. Put it in a nice soil it will sprout again. This is Laya situation. Now roast the seed and put it in the garden - it won't sprout ever. Nasha situation.
Su: Nice example
RP: Yea!
KG: Gr8 example!
So shouldn't be Mano Nasha correspond to self-realization or is it still not gone above Dharma, so still a stepping stone. My assumption is Arjuna stood 4 Dharma after Geeta bodh but was still not a realized master.
RP: I think we should just take them as example of understanding Laya and nasha. In Arjun's case what was destroyed vs what was in Laya state is specific to that example. Obviously upadesa Saar discussion is higher.
KG: Ok
Laya-vinaashane ubhaya rodhane.
Laya gatam punar bhavati no mrtam.
What is the difference between mano laya and mano nasha? What does destruction of the mind mean?
Su: From Guruji's commentary I understand that mind has two aspects.. sensing the sense objects around us, perceiving them and making sense of them and registering it in our memory. Then we come to enjoy and depend on them eventually leading us to believe that happiness lies these objects. We need to understand happiness lies in us (subject ) is not the nature of the object.
When we try to control the mind thru pranas the mind is absorbed hence does not perceive the objects... but if the control goes it will return again. It's temporary. But when we control the mind directly with the understanding of the true nature of objects and man then that clingling-to-objects nature of mind gets destroyed. This destruction is permanent. Then the mind does not come back to cling to the outside world for happiness.
So here destruction is a positive concept. Therefore restraint thru pranas is like treatment of symptoms and destruction of mind is curing the disease.
So does that mean pranayama can be used as a beginners step...
GP: Good one sunitha
Swamiji, don't we experience mano-laya every day in deep sleep?
NB: True dat sunithaji... it mentions dat wen prana is controled, d mind is also in control n dsnt wander.but d ignorance stil remains.so destruction of d mind is destruction of d ignorance.so for one's growth i think first one must go for restraining d mind thru pranayam n second d removal of ignorance thru knowledge.
GP: Question: if the mind becomes dead, what remains? As long as we are 'alive' won't traces of the mind remain?
NB: But GP bhaiya, manolaya means absorbed mind na? so wat wil d mind b absorbed in deep sleep?
Dis is as per ur question asked GP bhaiya
Su: GP from what I understood from the commentary ... dead mind does not mean the thoughts stop. That goes on. But the ignorance based on which the mind function ends.. please correct me Swamiji
SR: I think its parallelism...mano laya state is temporary control of mind thru pranas like sleeping man is temporary in sleep nd can wake up nd resume his functions
Whereas mano nasha is permanent removal of ignorance aftr wich it nevr come backs like dead man never wakes up
GP: But sunitha, if thoughts remain, then the mind is still present. The statement says 'mano nasha' and not 'avidya nasha'. And hence my question.
So sanjit, does the mind also die when the person is dead?
SR: As per my understanding...when person dies...mind does not get vital energy frm pranas nor does it get senses to express...so it disconnects nd not in use...temporarily dead...but can b used when again connected with pranas nd senses
NE: So mind travels thru different births like the soul?
NB: I think mind dies in a dead man bcoz its nothing but flow of thoughts...' dead man doesnt think'
But wen it gets a new body bcoz of d vasanas den d mind xpreses again
Su: GP even I am not to clear in that. When I read this I had the same question as yours. If mind is the flow of thoughts, how can there be a mind without thoughts.
But then I thought what he meant was that the subtle body remains... but the ego entity with individual likes and dislikes ends...
Not sure I made sense
KG: My understanding :
Mano Laya - Absorbed using tool - Single pointed mind. Rebounces back when tool is withdrawn.
Mano Nasha - Mind in full control of the person(soul - not sure what an non-ignorant person is called). Mind/thoughts not driven by sense perception / memory / expectations / etc. Can choose what thoughts 2 think. Mind used as a tool to function pranas, body, etc.
RP: I think we must go back to the Vasanas->desires->thoughts->action->vasanas cycle. When we distract our minds and keep them focused using pranayama then this cycle is temporarily suspended but will resume again. But if mind understands that there is no real happiness in the objects and experiences that happiness is in the subject then the link is broken permanently. That does not mean no thoughts but no thoughts born of this chain.
Like the dialog in the movies - "samjho aaj se tumhara yeh dost mar chuka hai". Meaning something internally happened and no thoughts of friendship will sprout again but doesn't mean he doesn't think at all. Better example - Arjun getting thoughts of "oh they are my Guru and grandfather and relatives "etc before the war. After listening to the Gita these thoughts born of attachment are "dead" but Arjun is not dead. Of course both examples have their limitations.
Su: Ok then when they say with pranayama the mind becomes absorbed hence no perception hence no agitation etc. But the mind has become absorbed now and no perception is happening now. What about earlier impressions. In the Vasanas cycle... can Vasanas be suppressed so that they don't express bcz mind is absorbed
SS: Good churning happening. Keep it going
RP: Sunita - I think we can try explain this using the same Arjun example. Krishna could have tried to tell Arjun about Draupadi incidence etc and that could have temporarily psyched Arjun to forget his attachments and get ready for a fight. but when he would come face to face with his teacher then again he will not be able raise his bow. But when his mind is truly "absorbed" in the knowledge these attachments don't raise again at all. What happened to the attachments - well the guy who used to be influenced by these are gone. Same with Vasanas in our discussions.
Su: So you are saying that Vasanas become dormant bcz the individual does not identify with it anymore ?
Can that happen?
RP: In fact (I have read in some version) Arjun tells Draupadi at one point during the war that this war is not about you and the humiliation you were subjected to but it is about Dharma!!! Now that coming from him who all the time prepared for war remembering that incident and other similar injustice done - it is really something. speaks of the transformation and not some hypnosis or psyched up situation. Back to our Laya and nasha discussion.
Su: If draupadi actually thought the whole war was for her ...imagine being told you never figured.. lol 😅
Sorry for digressing.. back to discussion
RP: Not sure about dormant - if it is dormant then it can sprout again. Like take a seed and put it in a fridge - it won't sprout. Put it in a nice soil it will sprout again. This is Laya situation. Now roast the seed and put it in the garden - it won't sprout ever. Nasha situation.
Su: Nice example
RP: Yea!
KG: Gr8 example!
So shouldn't be Mano Nasha correspond to self-realization or is it still not gone above Dharma, so still a stepping stone. My assumption is Arjuna stood 4 Dharma after Geeta bodh but was still not a realized master.
RP: I think we should just take them as example of understanding Laya and nasha. In Arjun's case what was destroyed vs what was in Laya state is specific to that example. Obviously upadesa Saar discussion is higher.
KG: Ok
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